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Someone posted in the Piano forum that Polyester is more durable than satin finish. Is this true?
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I think polyester is more durable in that it is a harder, tougher exterior finish. On the other hand, the satin finishes are thinner, and leave more of the wood cabinet exterior exposed and less protected, per-se, than the tougher polyester.
Polyester is kind of like the clear-coat on modern vehicle finishes. GM calls their factory clear-coat, "Diamond-coat" because of its hardness and durability.
Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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Someone posted in the Piano forum that Polyester is more durable than satin finish. Is this true? You are mixing terminology. Polyester is a material -- like shellac, lacquer or polyurethane. "Satin" is a finish treatment. Any finish material can be "satin".
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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Thanks so much! Then how do you know what material was used to create the satin finish?
Just really curious now, as a couple of responders have equated satin as being a less durable finish.
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Satin is very common with lacquer finishes. Polyester can also be done in satin, however high gloss is much easier to produce since it can be all achieved with machinery rather than hand polishing. Polyester goes on thick in one application and is ground down with polishing grinders to get glossy. Lacquer is applied in multiple coats and largely hand ground to the desired sheen.
Polyester us much harder than lacquer, however that hardness can also end up cracking as the wood moves underneath. No finish is perfect...all have their advantages and disadvantages.
High gloss poly will show every microscopic dust particle and fingerprint. Satin hides a lot of that. Choose your poison.
Pwg
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Thanks so much! Then how do you know what material was used to create the satin finish?
Just really curious now, as a couple of responders have equated satin as being a less durable finish. Typically, the satin of the New York Steinways, for example, are lacquer. But I've seen oriental pianos with polyester finishes with satin surfaces. Well, If you are going to hit a new finish with a hammer, you have to hit the polyester harder to get a crack. Polyester is probably more resistant to activities that shouldn't happen around a piano, anyway. But all finishes eventually fail due to ongoing environmental circumstances.
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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The satin finish on my 40 year old Baldwin SF10 is highly directional. Fingerprints get stuck in the wood grain. The only way to erase them is to wipe/wash in the direction of the grain and even then they are hard to wipe out. Using swirling motions to clean the finish is worse than useless as swirling actually smudges the lacquer's grain.
Satin is a pain so in my next life I'm going with high gloss polyester that can withstand a rotary car polisher.
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The satin finish on my 40 year old Baldwin SF10 is highly directional. Fingerprints get stuck in the wood grain. The only way to erase them is to wipe/wash in the direction of the grain and even then they are hard to wipe out. Using swirling motions to clean the finish is worse than useless as swirling actually smudges the lacquer's grain.
Satin is a pain so in my next life I'm going with high gloss polyester that can withstand a rotary car polisher. Are you using a product like Cory's All Brite?
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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Like I said, no finish is perfect for all. And different levels of satin behave differently.
Pwg
Last edited by P W Grey; 01/29/20 11:13 AM.
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I was not aware that the polyester finish came in a satin configuration. I thought polyester was always high-gloss. In fact, I've heard and read here on PW many times, that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to take a polyester, high-gloss finish, and sand it, or otherwise alter it to try to make it satin. I've read it creates a whitish, milky/creamy looking finish that is no where near satin.
But I guess if you deliberately apply the polyester finish to be less glossy, and satin looking, it can be done, I suppose. But I have never heard of a polyester satin finish.
Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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I was not aware that the polyester finish came in a satin configuration. I thought polyester was always high-gloss. In fact, I've heard and read here on PW many times, that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to take a polyester, high-gloss finish, and sand it, or otherwise alter it to try to make it satin. I've read it creates a whitish, milky/creamy looking finish that is no where near satin.
But I guess if you deliberately apply the polyester finish to be less glossy, and satin looking, it can be done, I suppose. But I have never heard of a polyester satin finish.
Rick Not common, for sure. I've seen a few. Factory jobs, of course. Maybe there was a wax coat to keep the white down. It wasn't nearly as good IMO as satin lacquer or shellac.
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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The satin finish on my 40 year old Baldwin SF10 is highly directional. Fingerprints get stuck in the wood grain. The only way to erase them is to wipe/wash in the direction of the grain and even then they are hard to wipe out. Using swirling motions to clean the finish is worse than useless as swirling actually smudges the lacquer's grain.
Satin is a pain so in my next life I'm going with high gloss polyester that can withstand a rotary car polisher. Are you using a product like Cory's Buff Brite? In 2016 I bought Cory All Brite thinking that I could use it to remove the faintest of microscopic wipe marks from my brand new Blüthner High Gloss Polyester finish. I have experience in fine scratch removal and polishing on car clearcoat so I thought this would be a similar task. At first I was surprised that the Buff Brite advertised as suitable for polyester finishes was not making any headway after a few minutes using it in a gentle linear direction so as not to produce swirls. This polyester is much harder than any car clearcoat so I then increased the pressure slightly. The result was disappointing, as although the fine marks which could not be felt with my nail were removed the reflections from the small area being worked on were different from the other area. On reading up on polishing technology I realise that any abrasive no matter how fine would cause the top layer of molecules to be worn away and be different to the molecule pattern of any other polished area. This would not have been a problem if the finish had been satin which microscopically speaking is relatively rough so different abrasives don't make so much of a difference. This has greatly increased my admiration for professional piano restorers. I now use Cory Super High Gloss Polish and the penny size of previously worked area is now invisible. Ian
I'm all keyed up 2016 Blüthner Model A
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Well polyester is known for its durability and resistance to wear and tear, which can make it a great choice for surfaces that see a lot of use.
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The satin finish on my 40 year old Baldwin SF10 is highly directional. Fingerprints get stuck in the wood grain. The only way to erase them is to wipe/wash in the direction of the grain and even then they are hard to wipe out. Using swirling motions to clean the finish is worse than useless as swirling actually smudges the lacquer's grain.
Satin is a pain so in my next life I'm going with high gloss polyester that can withstand a rotary car polisher. That's because it is a high gloss lacquer finish mechanically abraded after it dried. Some sort of rotary tool with carefully sized and spaced abrasive seems to have been used to produce a huge number of tiny parallel scratches. And yes, oil from fingers get stuck in the scratches leaving difficult to remove fingerprints. Given time the fingerprints kind of blend together I use a low speed rotary tool designed for cleaning showers with an edgeless microfiber pad on occasion. It [seems] harmless to the finish. Mine is about eighty years old and I don't know if the actual paint used stayed the same. In the 1940s I believe it was essentially very high quality automotive lacquer.
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Well polyester is known for its durability and resistance to wear and tear, which can make it a great choice for surfaces that see a lot of use. However, satin black is more about aesthetics and can give a sleek, elegant look to a piano. It might not be as tough as polyester, but it can still hold up well if properly cared for.
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I'm a fan of the natural wood finishes. However, if I had to have black, it would definitely be the poly coated one. The satin black grands look too much like school auditorium or stuffy teacher's home pianos. I too learned from this thread that they make the poly in satin finish but I would still choose the standard gloss finish myself.
Last edited by Tuner; 01/17/24 02:17 PM.
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Just to be pedantic, polyester is the resin in the finishing material, and gloss versus satin is the surface treatment of the finish.
Semipro Tech
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One can also produce a high gloss lacquer finish but it's a lot more work vs one coat Polyester.
Polyester is thick, hard, and goes on in one thick coat. Then it's ground down with successfully finer abrasives and then polished...all pretty much by machine. Lacquer is a built up finish through numerous successive coats and then hand ground to the desired sheen. Very final high gloss probably done by machine, but VERY carefully. Way more human time required.
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
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At first I was surprised that the Buff Brite advertised as suitable for polyester finishes was not making any headway after a few minutes using it in a gentle linear direction so as not to produce swirls. This polyester is much harder than any car clearcoat. For future reference, in the description of the product on most online stores ... "Buff-Brite is NOT recommended for Polyester finishes as it could scratch". In practical terms Polyester isn't harder than a fully cured quality 2K automotive clear coat. If anything, I'd say its a little softer and more prone to swirl marks from machine polishing if methodology isn't perfect. The techniques and products that can be used to cut and polish either are identical. The biggest issue is 'gloss black'. Every scratch, pigtail, ripple (orange peel in a sprayed clear coat), etc will stand out on a high gloss black surface more than another color, piano or vehicle.
Sydney Australia Retired, was part time technician
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Piano
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Piano
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