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What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
#2939500 01/28/20 01:42 AM
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Ok - so regardless of price, what is hands down the most realistic acoustic grand action and sound in a Digital Piano?
What is the absolute top of the line now?
I know there are some taste differences - kawai grand, yamaha, steinway, faziola, etc.

But which one really knocks it out of the park for you, both in terms of matching action and sound of an actual fantastic acoustic grand?

Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
AB99 #2939502 01/28/20 01:54 AM
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Check out the Yamaha C3X TA2. Nothing should get you closer to the real thing.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
AB99 #2939503 01/28/20 01:55 AM
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It’s between the AvantGrand and the Novus. Both are hybrids, meaning they stick a real grand piano action in the body.
I would chose the one with the more realistic action: fast and with little friction. “Fly away keys”. I suspect Yamaha might have the quicker action.

Last edited by rintincop; 01/28/20 02:00 AM.

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Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
AB99 #2939509 01/28/20 02:46 AM
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You're asking for 3 different things:
1. Best digital piano
2. Most realistic action (closest to an acoustic grand piano action)
3. Best sound

Answers:
1. Yamaha AvantGrand N3X
2. Kawai Novus NV10
3. If you like Steinway sound: Vienna Symphonic Library Steinway D:
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Pianos_Bundle/Concert_D
Otherwise it will be a different VST.

Last edited by Burkie; 01/28/20 02:53 AM.

Piano is one of the top human inventions of the past 300 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
AB99 #2939510 01/28/20 02:52 AM
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Yes asking for three things in one instrument. (1) digital; (2) most realistic action; and (3) most realistic sound - like one is playing an awesome acoustic grand piano.

The responses so far about the AvantGrand and the NV10 make sense. Not interested in a VST - because I am looking for all three in one instrument.

It is unfortunate that I really like the Steinway sound the best - because it seems that there is not a "hybrid" out yet that has accomplished that.

I agree about VSL' steinway, btw.

Thank you very much!

(BTW - what is exciting about these responses - is that these responses would not have existed 10 years ago. I think the next 10 years will be amazing!)

Last edited by AB99; 01/28/20 02:55 AM.
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
AB99 #2939512 01/28/20 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AB99
Yes asking for three things in one instrument.

Note that requirements #1 and #2 are incompatible.
As acoustic pianos have design limitations.

E.g. Kawai's NV10 has a full acoustic action including the key weight is lighter when you pedal.
However the Yamaha N3X is superior because it keeps the key weights the same - irrespective of whether you are pedalling.

You can't have a 100% acoustic action are still be considered the best/most advanced. Improvement comes via change. Things don't get better if they stay the same (if you simply copy an acoustic action).

Last edited by Burkie; 01/28/20 03:04 AM.

Piano is one of the top human inventions of the past 300 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
Burkie #2939516 01/28/20 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by AB99
Yes asking for three things in one instrument.

Note that requirements #1 and #2 are incompatible.
As acoustic pianos have design limitations.

E.g. Kawai's NV10 has a full acoustic action including the key weight is lighter when you pedal.
However the Yamaha N3X is superior because it keeps the key weights the same - irrespective of whether you are pedalling.

You can't have a 100% acoustic action are still be considered the best/most advanced. Improvement comes via change. Things don't get better if they stay the same (if you simply copy an acoustic action).


Interesting, but flawed, view in my opinion. How much experience do you have of grand pianos?


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 | Kawai VPC1
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
AB99 #2939520 01/28/20 03:49 AM
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I am more optimistic. I remember recording with tape for years and some people talking about digital recording. Most of us thought that tape would remain the main recording means and that digital would never replace it. (Hmmm - Kodak may have thought the same thing). Anyway, things do change. Plugins will eventually emulate hardware - it is only a matter of time. And yes - digital keyboards will figure out a way to sound as good or better than acoustic grands while capturing of all the benefits of an acoustic grand's action. And yes, it will all eventually get lighter and weight and compensated by other innovations. We are only in the baby stage of the "high-tech" revolution - for lack of a better term.

The strides by Yamaha and Kawai illustrate this. Maybe someone will come up with a completely foldable soundboard that mimics that best sitka completely. It is all a matter of time and drive to innovate.

Last edited by AB99; 01/28/20 03:50 AM.
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
Burkie #2939550 01/28/20 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie
You're asking for 3 different things:
1. Best digital piano
2. Most realistic action (closest to an acoustic grand piano action)
3. Best sound

A TransAcoustic grand piano does all three as good as it gets. So why is this thread even bothering with hybrid digitals based on baby grand actions or even VSTs?

You won't get a better action in a digital piano than the action inside a Yamaha C3X TA2.

You won't get a better sound than through the Yamaha C3X TA2 soundboard.

You won't get a better digital piano than a real grand equipped with Yamaha SH2 and a way to project it to the room (beside the ability to play it conventionally).

Yes, it costs about 50k quid (or more), but the OP deliberately set no price limit. So what's the point of this discussion?


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
AB99 #2939556 01/28/20 05:51 AM
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With regards to 'feeling' like an acoustic, I think we should exclude the hybrids because they don't feel like acoustics. They literally ARE an acoustic action. Obviously, there could still be differences in the feel. However, two of the same model of an acoustic piano could also feel different due to certain circumstances as we all know.

Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
JoeT #2939559 01/28/20 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
So what's the point of this discussion?


I assumed the OP meant best 'digital piano', not acoustic piano with digital capabilities.

'Best' is Yamaha Avant Grand N3X. That is best overall. The Novus NV10 may or may not have a slightly superior action. But as a package the N3X is certainly superior - but then it costs a lot more.

Aside from 'hybrids' such as Avant Grand and Novus then the older Roland V-Piano Grand (don't know if it's still available) could make a case for itself because I think Roland put some very careful thought into the onboard amplification.

Otherwise I would imagine the brand new Kawai CA series instruments will be about as good as it gets in the world of 'standard' (for want of a better word) digital pianos.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 | Kawai VPC1
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
AB99 #2939561 01/28/20 06:18 AM
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I assume Rolands GPX-F1 will be a contender. It was PianomanChucks choice for DP of the year at NAMM this year, and he has a video on that on Youtube. Apparently it comes at a rather high price though (500K USD, or something like that).

Here is Rolands presentation of it:

https://www.roland.com/global/promos/piano_design_awards/facet_grand_piano/


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite, Production Voices Estate Grand
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
AB99 #2939565 01/28/20 06:32 AM
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You’re kidding, right? That thing is a redundant monstrosity!
Incidentally, all these claims by Roland regarding its superior sound dispersion/reproduction are just that.....claims.


Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
Pete14 #2939572 01/28/20 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
You’re kidding, right? That thing is a redundant monstrosity!
Incidentally, all these claims by Roland regarding its superior sound dispersion/reproduction are just that.....claims.



Certainly they're just claims for now. But Roland tends to deliver good stuff, so my gut feeling is that this DP will seem rather fine. Of course at that price we'll never know, because no piano playing person will pay such a horrendous sum of money for it. Only non-piano playing oligarchs in isolated fortresses will do so.

But I wouldn't mind having this thing at home; to me it looks simple and elegant.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
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Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
EssBrace #2939579 01/28/20 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by JoeT
So what's the point of this discussion?


I assumed the OP meant best 'digital piano', not acoustic piano with digital capabilities.

But the Yamaha C3X TA2 is a digital piano with acoustic capabilities. You don't have to use them.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
JoeT #2939580 01/28/20 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by JoeT
So what's the point of this discussion?


I assumed the OP meant best 'digital piano', not acoustic piano with digital capabilities.

But the Yamaha C3X TA2 is a digital piano with acoustic capabilities. You don't have to use them.


Well, it's purely semantics but I see silent grands and transacoustics as acoustic pianos with digital capabilities. I don't think most people consider them 'digital pianos'. But that's just my opinion.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 | Kawai VPC1
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
QuasiUnaFantasia #2939814 01/28/20 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
I assume Rolands GPX-F1 will be a contender. It was PianomanChucks choice for DP of the year at NAMM this year, and he has a video on that on Youtube. Apparently it comes at a rather high price though (500K USD, or something like that).

Here is Rolands presentation of it:

https://www.roland.com/global/promos/piano_design_awards/facet_grand_piano/

From the web link:
Quote

While we do not have any plans to release the Facet as a production model, we will continue to refine its design language and technologies to influence future generations of Roland pianos.


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Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
Sweelinck #2939849 01/28/20 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
From the web link:
Quote

While we do not have any plans to release the Facet as a production model, we will continue to refine its design language and technologies to influence future generations of Roland pianos.



According to PianomanChuck's report, the way he understands it Roland plans to make 10 of these pianos (at the 5:46 mark in the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O5XSoLUqq8


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
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Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
EssBrace #2939983 01/28/20 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by AB99
Yes asking for three things in one instrument.

Note that requirements #1 and #2 are incompatible.
As acoustic pianos have design limitations.

E.g. Kawai's NV10 has a full acoustic action including the key weight is lighter when you pedal.
However the Yamaha N3X is superior because it keeps the key weights the same - irrespective of whether you are pedalling.

You can't have a 100% acoustic action are still be considered the best/most advanced. Improvement comes via change. Things don't get better if they stay the same (if you simply copy an acoustic action).


Interesting, but flawed, view in my opinion. How much experience do you have of grand pianos?

Enough to know that they're far too loud for most living rooms and apartments!
Again, a design limitation.

At least we both agree that the N3X is currently the best digital piano on the market smile. And that itself proves digitals should not 100% copy acoustic actions.

Last edited by Burkie; 01/28/20 09:26 PM.

Piano is one of the top human inventions of the past 300 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: What is hands down best DP that sounds/feel like ac grand?
JoeT #2939986 01/28/20 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Burkie
You're asking for 3 different things:
1. Best digital piano
2. Most realistic action (closest to an acoustic grand piano action)
3. Best sound

A TransAcoustic grand piano does all three as good as it gets. So what's the point of this discussion?

Nope. TransAcoustics suffer from the same design limitations as acoustics:
Key weight fluctuates depending upon pedaling.
Require frequent tuning.
Require constant electricity consumption for heating / air conditioning to prevent the sound board from warping/dying.
Digitals use less power and last longer without power.

You're burning your cash, mate!

Last edited by Burkie; 01/28/20 09:24 PM.

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