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Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
Abdol #2939250 01/27/20 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by magicpiano
What do you think of this piano sound timbre?


No difference in the timber.

The only difference is how it cuts through the mix. In order to achieve different sounds, you need different samples or a DSP that modifies the timber of the samples you have.

That's why a well thought of digital piano must be capable of loading samples in keyboards, like Nord.

Yamaha has tried this trick so many times. It will never satisfy any musicians. Brightness or darkenss of a sound must be part of the timber of the sound and not trick by EQing the sound.


In this instance you are wrong, because the two examples come from two different sample sets. One is a sample of a Kawai upright piano, the other is a sample from a Kawai concert grand.

If you don't hear a difference in timbre (not "timber", btw, unless you refer to the "woodiness" of the sound), then maybe you have bad playback equipment (headphones/speakers)?

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
Boboulus #2939260 01/27/20 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Boboulus
It's a beautiful piece and you play it really nicely. Inspired me to try it also... just give me a couple of months haha smile

Thank you! It's a little piece and I think it's easy to learn. You can divide it in 4 parts: the 2nd is like the 1st with very little note variations, and the 4th part is identical to the 2nd. So, it's more like a 2 parts little piece. I learned it in a few days. The important thing is to follow the right fingering you can find on the piano sheet.

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
JoBert #2939266 01/27/20 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by magicpiano
What do you think of this piano sound timbre?


No difference in the timber.

The only difference is how it cuts through the mix. In order to achieve different sounds, you need different samples or a DSP that modifies the timber of the samples you have.

That's why a well thought of digital piano must be capable of loading samples in keyboards, like Nord.

Yamaha has tried this trick so many times. It will never satisfy any musicians. Brightness or darkenss of a sound must be part of the timber of the sound and not trick by EQing the sound.


In this instance you are wrong, because the two examples come from two different sample sets. One is a sample of a Kawai upright piano, the other is a sample from a Kawai concert grand.

If you don't hear a difference in timbre (not "timber", btw, unless you refer to the "woodiness" of the sound), then maybe you have bad playback equipment (headphones/speakers)?


The first post comes from one set of samples.

I never listened to the second performance until now. But, it is still the same as the default samples (two different defaults). It is impossible to change the timber of the sound on Kawai Digital Pianos and in sample-based pianos in general.

Last edited by Abdol; 01/27/20 01:20 PM.

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Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
Abdol #2939270 01/27/20 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol

The first post comes from one set of samples.

I never listened to the second performance until now. But, it is still the same as the default samples (two different defaults). It is impossible to change the timber of the sound on Kawai Digital Pianos and in sample-based pianos in general.


I think JoBert is correct here. Kawai DPs have 4-5 sets of samples from different acoustic pianos. There's the pianist mode samples (which may be the same instrument/samples as the SK-EX in Sound Mode, but at higher bitrate/length/multisampling), and in Sound Mode the SK-EX, SK-5, EX Concert Grand, Upright, and at least one other unnamed grand--could be the Jazz or Pop piano preset (which Kawai James mentioned was a separate sample set when the discussion came up for the MP11).

They're not all modified filters/presets of the same piano samples.


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Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
Gombessa #2939315 01/27/20 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
[...]and in Sound Mode the SK-EX, SK-5, EX Concert Grand, Upright, and at least one other unnamed grand--could be the Jazz or Pop piano preset (which Kawai James mentioned was a separate sample set when the discussion came up for the MP11).

They're not all modified filters/presets of the same piano samples.
There is the "Standard Grand" too (with relative variations). It's a very old sample set (probably just 1 velocity layer), I think it's from the first digital pianos from Kawai.

My impression is that the Jazz piano preset is very similar to the EX ConcertGrand but with an higher volume of the sustained looped part compared with the EX.

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2939405 01/27/20 07:32 PM
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Yes, the "Standard Grand" is an older sound, but still included because it works well for pop/rock music. It's also heard on recordings from a few popular 2000's-era bands that used Kawai DPs at that time (and still do today).

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2939429 01/27/20 08:19 PM
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Generally, rock and pop musicians may look for a particular sound by exploring patches, modifying the sound, using effects etc to get the tone and sound they wasn’t. This is customary and expected with these musical styles. It is not the norm with classical piano. Generally instruments with power and certain tonal qualities are prized by pianists, but the pianists creates different rival colora through the playing of the instrument.

I believe a player of the instrument in question would be well served by sticking to the SK-EX patch with its longer sustain and more singing tone if the goal is to progress in skill at playing classical repertoire.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
Sweelinck #2939459 01/27/20 10:38 PM
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Typo and spell randomizer corrector errors fixed:

Generally, rock and pop musicians may look for a particular sound by exploring patches, modifying the sound, using effects etc to get the tone and sound they want. This is customary and expected with these musical styles. It is not the norm with classical piano. Generally instruments with power and certain tonal qualities are prized by pianists, but the pianists creates different tonal colors through the playing of the instrument.

I believe a player of the instrument in question would be well served by sticking to the SK-EX patch with its longer sustain and more singing tone if the goal is to progress in skill at playing classical repertoire.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
Kawai James #2939640 01/28/20 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Yes, the "Standard Grand" is an older sound, but still included because it works well for pop/rock music. It's also heard on recordings from a few popular 2000's-era bands that used Kawai DPs at that time (and still do today).

I have another piano sound on my CN37 that I think it's a variation of the Standard Grand, but mellower and more volume on the low velocities: it's called "Middle Grand". I think the Standard Grand has some nice timbres but it lacks detail when played at low velocities so I thought to mod them in the VT and then layer the two: Standard + Middle Grand.

LINK TO LISTEN (Standard Grand + Middle Grand combo)

I think the result is not so bad with a sample set from... 2005?

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2939680 01/28/20 11:46 AM
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Sounds very musical. I'm surprised at how much you can accomplish with your onboard sounds!

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
navindra #2939762 01/28/20 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by navindra
Sounds very musical. I'm surprised at how much you can accomplish with your onboard sounds!

I like to fiddle with the options... smile Layering 2 different piano sound patches is difficult because usually in the mixed sound you can easily distinguish the 2 different instruments and that is bad... So, you have to change the options in such a way that the notes should sound richer but at the same time you should not be able to distinguish the original notes from the 2 sound patches.

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2940264 01/29/20 02:10 PM
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Honestly I didn't like the first version. It reminded me of playing on an acoustic upright piano with moderator pedal down. Notes fade away too soon on it, and it's a kind of thing that is usually found on low class DPs and a thing that companies like Kawai try hard to overcome.

There might be a sense in that preset for some pieces when you specifically want to create stuffy, stale atmosphere, but in my opinion it's not very good for a little flower. I think your SK version sounds much better.

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
Iaroslav Vasiliev #2940369 01/29/20 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Honestly I didn't like the first version. It reminded me of playing on an acoustic upright piano with moderator pedal down. Notes fade away too soon on it, and it's a kind of thing that is usually found on low class DPs and a thing that companies like Kawai try hard to overcome.

There might be a sense in that preset for some pieces when you specifically want to create stuffy, stale atmosphere, but in my opinion it's not very good for a little flower. I think your SK version sounds much better.

I appreciate your feedback.

The upright sound patch of my Kawai DPs was sampled from a Kawai K-60. It's a piano with a very short attack, so the samples reproduce this behavior. Personally I like how it sounds with many Gurlitt compositions. Certainly it's not an all-rounder piano sound, it's more percussive and the sustained sound fades away sooner compared with the SK-EX or the EX, but I feel more detail in its samples... More wood resonances... And I feel a more vintage character in it.

It's interesting how different people can have very different opinions on a piano sound timbre.

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2940402 01/29/20 09:42 PM
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What are your goals? You mentioned in the OP that you were a beginner. Your playing of the piece is very nice, exceeding the level of an average beginner. If you want to develop your abilities with respect to touch and tone, the SK Concert Grand patch will serve you much better than the upright sound. In your 2nd rendition, you were achieving a nicer, more singing tone than most beginners would achieve with this piece. In the long run, I think a focus on the tone you produce with your hands will be more rewarding than the tone you produce by audio engineering the sounds you use, at least if your goal is to play classical piano repertoire.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2940485 01/30/20 06:54 AM
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Thank you very much Sweelinck. I play the piano a little more seriously from about 6 months (basically, when I bought my Kawai CN37) so I think I am definitely a beginner. Previously, I had a semi-weighted midi keyboard that was very awful to control (too much jumpy and too much easy to reach the max velocity value of 127) that I used mainly for trying VST piano sounds and to play a little of pop music. The Kawai RHIII action was so different (in a good way) that I felt I started completely from zero on it, and I felt I could try to learn some classical piano music.

For now my goal is to learn some nice little pieces like the one in this thread (or a little longer), so that I can develop technique that helps me to play more fluently and with a nice dynamics control (and having fun in the process, so no boring exercises please! laugh ). Then, when I feel ready I would like to learn some more complex (but not too advanced) classical pieces and something from the Jazz repertoire.

Usually, the SK-EX is my default piano patch when I start learning something. After that, sometimes I try to play it with the EX and the Upright. I'm astonished at how much different a piece can be when you play it with different piano patches. For example, the Rondò alla Turca by Mozart (which I could not resist trying to learn it!) IMHO is much better sounding with the EX piano patch.

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2950149 02/22/20 12:47 PM
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As usual, I'm experimenting with my DP piano sounds. Can you give me an opinion between these 2 piano timbres and which do you prefer?

1

2

I know, I should practice more and fiddle less with the settings, but it's my geek nature. laugh

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2953354 03/01/20 06:31 PM
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I just learned to play the well-known Schumann little piece "Of foreign Lands and People" (Op.15 n.1), so I played it on my CN37 with the same settings of the file number 2 in the above post and recorded:

CLICK HERE TO LISTEN

Sorry for the errors in playing it, but what do you think of the sound?

Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2953383 03/01/20 08:55 PM
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Nice playing. Regarding the experiment, I prefer the first. The second had too much of an echo. Reverb I guess.


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Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
magicpiano #2953385 03/01/20 09:06 PM
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I think it sounds nice


When you play, never mind who listens to you. R.Schumann.

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Re: Feedback on this digital piano sound...
TomLC #2953455 03/02/20 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Nice playing. Regarding the experiment, I prefer the first. The second had too much of an echo. Reverb I guess.
Thank you! Yes, the idea in the second one was to get a "darker" and more resonant sound timbre to get closer to an acoustic piano played in a normal room (so, with some natural reverb in it). The first is just the default piano sound with no mods.

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