Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
I can't even imagine getting to the point where I could play a Chopin nocturne! Maybe in 10 years! lol I feel like that about Chopin's Waltz in A minor which my teacher says I can start to learn now, but it is terrifying! Those left hand jumps are so scary!
I started the same Nocturne a few weeks ago! Want to start a "study group" here? I'd love to have someone to commiserate with And compare practice ideas, dealing with tough passages (many, many tough passages...), etc.
Now learning: Debussy Clar de Lune, Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, Joplin The Chrysanthemum Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
I can't even imagine getting to the point where I could play a Chopin nocturne! Maybe in 10 years! lol I feel like that about Chopin's Waltz in A minor which my teacher says I can start to learn now, but it is terrifying! Those left hand jumps are so scary!
Welcome to PW, Amykpiano! It may not be so far in the future for you. Waltz in A min is RCM level 6 and Nocturne in C# min is RCM level 9. So 3 years + or - ?
across the stone, deathless piano performances
"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano "Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person "Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
I can't even imagine getting to the point where I could play a Chopin nocturne! Maybe in 10 years! lol I feel like that about Chopin's Waltz in A minor which my teacher says I can start to learn now, but it is terrifying! Those left hand jumps are so scary!
Itโs all scary until you finally conquer it, and then that gives you the courage to go forward. All we can do is keep trying!
I started the same Nocturne a few weeks ago! Want to start a "study group" here? I'd love to have someone to commiserate with And compare practice ideas, dealing with tough passages (many, many tough passages...), etc.
If you want to, sure! I have a bunch of other things that Iโm playing along with this one, so I thought to take this piece nice and slow and really get it down as I move along through it. But Iโll absolutely post whatever insight, LOL, that I might get. Which probably wonโt be a lot. ๐
I can't even imagine getting to the point where I could play a Chopin nocturne! Maybe in 10 years! lol I feel like that about Chopin's Waltz in A minor which my teacher says I can start to learn now, but it is terrifying! Those left hand jumps are so scary!
Welcome to PW, Amykpiano! It may not be so far in the future for you. Waltz in A min is RCM level 6 and Nocturne in C# min is RCM level 9. So 3 years + or - ?
This will be a bit of a stretch for me, but after the mazurka that I played this past summer, Iโm feeling mildly confident. Sort of? I donโt know, weโll see!
Thanks so much for the welcome Tyrone! I'm not sure if my teacher is correct when she says I can play the Chopin Waltz. lol She has more confidence in me than I do in myself! I have only been playing for a little over a year, although I played for a short time as a child. I'm definitely not level 6 though! Maybe level 2-3.
Thank you also Lisa! I agree, when I think of how far I've come since last year at this time, it's pretty amazing! Good luck to you with the Nocturne! I hope I can join you in a 5 years! I love Chopin's pieces!
Thanks so much for the welcome Tyrone! I'm not sure if my teacher is correct when she says I can play the Chopin Waltz. lol She has more confidence in me than I do in myself! I have only been playing for a little over a year, although I played for a short time as a child. I'm definitely not level 6 though! Maybe level 2-3.
Aha! So your teacher was already assigning you a "stretch" piece with Waltz in A min. Good luck with it! I'm sure your teacher will help you through the rough spots.
across the stone, deathless piano performances
"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano "Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person "Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Thanks so much for the welcome Tyrone! I'm not sure if my teacher is correct when she says I can play the Chopin Waltz. lol She has more confidence in me than I do in myself! I have only been playing for a little over a year, although I played for a short time as a child. I'm definitely not level 6 though! Maybe level 2-3.
Thank you also Lisa! I agree, when I think of how far I've come since last year at this time, it's pretty amazing! Good luck to you with the Nocturne! I hope I can join you in a 5 years! I love Chopin's pieces!
I started the Waltz in A minor about 1 year after starting lessons (never having taken any, and starting at age 46), it took me a good 6 months to get to barely performance level, but I learned so much from it! I spent many hours just playing single measures of the left hand to get those jumps down. But what ebonykawai said, "Itโs all scary until you finally conquer it, and then that gives you the courage to go forward." is so true. Now, when I find music with those kinds of jumps in it, they don't faze me at all. Indeed, it opened up a world of possibilities, and I was really proud that something that seemed impossible when I started became manageable.
Now, almost 4 years in I'm working on the Chopin Nocturne. It's got some challenges, but I know with hard work, I'll overcome them. Some of the challenges:
- 3 against 2 rhythms - Reading the piece, especially during the modulations, with the double sharps and other accidentals - The really fast scales at the end - Chords that change almost every measure and don't repeat themselves in the same form very often
I'll get them though!
So anyway, tackle that Waltz! I think you'll find that you don't need 10 years before you can play the Nocturne
Now learning: Debussy Clar de Lune, Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, Joplin The Chrysanthemum Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
Thank you both Tyrone and Chrispy again for the encouragement! I will give it a shot. I can play the first part painfully slowly after a few days but I have to start somewhere! ๐ I also restarted playing at 46! I guess thatโs the perfect age to begin!
A few weeks ago, my wife and I were sitting at the dinner table and we were listening to the nocturnes as performed by Bruno Rigutto, from his CD. I like his playing a lot. Anyway, my wife asked me how long before I could play the nocturnes! I blanched, and said, years, years.
So, I hit on the idea of cheating with a Yamaha DYUS1 Disklavier, a solenoid-based player piano, hahaha. Sheโs in for a surprise. Now, I just have to figure out who has recorded the most beautiful rendition of the nocturnes on the Disklavier.
I figure the Disklavier will cost as much as the lessons to play a single nocturne. So be it. Iโll pay for both things.
It's one of my pieces for 2020 - I learned no. 21 in C minor last year, which is easier. A nice introduction to Chopin's style (the real Chopin, after the easiest preludes and a few other 1-page pieces). I still can't play it well, but I learned a lot of things through it. I liked it much better than the A minor waltz, though, which has always been a struggle for me.
I've been at the C#Minor post Nocturne now for not quite six months. There are still some rough patches, mostly to do with the polyrhythms and then the long up and down run near the end. I'm still working on that last bit to get it up to speed. I do like how I have managed to get it to sound otherwise. It is a gorgeous piece.
@sinophilia I had not realised there was an easier nocturne, I thought the C#Minor was it.
That means there is yet another piece (YAP) I can add to my collection of pieces to learn.
Itยดs a beautiful piece, Iยดve listened to it many times.
Even though this piece does not have so many technical difficulties requiring virtuosic technique, the runs at the end will probably constitute a barrier for the vast majority of intermediate students. I like Rousseauยดs interpretation very much, listen to the perfect scale run at 3:30:
It probably takes many many years of serious practice to get this kind of control over the runs. Iยดve heard so many people slow down during the runs or it gets sloppy and very uneven (maybe I am too spoiled by this version by Rousseau lol).
You can feel free to start a group, but you might also want to take a look here: Chopin Nocturne C Sharp Minor Study Group as we did this last year and there are some nice tips and thoughts in here.
Good luck with this piece - itโs really beautiful. I returned to it a few weeks ago and although would have to relearn some of it, it comes back much more quickly the second time! Iโll be happy to offer some more thoughts as you go. Donโt be afraid of it, just take it one section at a time.
Chrispy, regarding those fast runs, just play them really slowly, and every day, while you learn the rest. Donโt save them for the end or theyโll haunt you as youโre nearly finished and canโt get them right! Speed them up ever so gradually. They take a while to build up, so I suggest you begin with them while learning the rest. Just play them about 10 times a day. Itโll only take a minute or two once youโve learned them.
A few weeks ago, my wife and I were sitting at the dinner table and we were listening to the nocturnes as performed by Bruno Rigutto, from his CD. I like his playing a lot. Anyway, my wife asked me how long before I could play the nocturnes! I blanched, and said, years, years.
So, I hit on the idea of cheating with a Yamaha DYUS1 Disklavier, a solenoid-based player piano, hahaha. Sheโs in for a surprise. Now, I just have to figure out who has recorded the most beautiful rendition of the nocturnes on the Disklavier.
I figure the Disklavier will cost as much as the lessons to play a single nocturne. So be it. Iโll pay for both things.
Disklavier is awesome, that's so great!
Originally Posted by Tom97
Itยดs a beautiful piece, Iยดve listened to it many times.
Even though this piece does not have so many technical difficulties requiring virtuosic technique, the runs at the end will probably constitute a barrier for the vast majority of intermediate students. I like Rousseauยดs interpretation very much, listen to the perfect scale run at 3:30:
It probably takes many many years of serious practice to get this kind of control over the runs. Iยดve heard so many people slow down during the runs or it gets sloppy and very uneven (maybe I am too spoiled by this version by Rousseau lol).
Good luck.
Thanks for this, I'm sure it will be super helpful!
Originally Posted by cmb13
You can feel free to start a group, but you might also want to take a look here: Chopin Nocturne C Sharp Minor Study Group as we did this last year and there are some nice tips and thoughts in here.
Good luck with this piece - itโs really beautiful. I returned to it a few weeks ago and although would have to relearn some of it, it comes back much more quickly the second time! Iโll be happy to offer some more thoughts as you go. Donโt be afraid of it, just take it one section at a time.
Excellent, thank, you!
Yes, I've finally learned how to reply to more than one at a time. ๐๐๐ Thanks everyone!
The ABRSM level 7 book includes this Nocturne but changes it slightly from the Henle edition. Slightly simplifying the piece, I think it was felt that was required to bring it down to level 7.
My previous teacher had the ABRSM level 7 book and we were looking at it and comparing with the version I was using. Because she learnt it when she did her level 7 exams she was initially confused by what I was playing.
It might be worthwhile making sure you are working off the same edition of the piece.
I'm working in Keith Snell level 9, I've never known him to make simplifications in his series so I trust the edition.
Originally Posted by sinophilia
It's one of my pieces for 2020 - I learned no. 21 in C minor last year, which is easier. A nice introduction to Chopin's style (the real Chopin, after the easiest preludes and a few other 1-page pieces). I still can't play it well, but I learned a lot of things through it. I liked it much better than the A minor waltz, though, which has always been a struggle for me.
Yep, the C minor post. is the nocturne Magrath suggests as a student's first one to try. (Her book "A Pianist's Guide to Standard Teaching and Performance Literature" has been very helpful for me!)
The ABRSM level 7 book includes this Nocturne but changes it slightly from the Henle edition. Slightly simplifying the piece, I think it was felt that was required to bring it down to level 7.
My previous teacher had the ABRSM level 7 book and we were looking at it and comparing with the version I was using. Because she learnt it when she did her level 7 exams she was initially confused by what I was playing.
It might be worthwhile making sure you are working off the same edition of the piece.
In my edition of the Henle, there is mention in the Preface of two different versions of the work and my Henle volume includes both. So, it's not a simplification of the work by a modern editor, but differences, as Henle points out, among the "autograph, several manuscript copies, a first edition and an early impression." .
The ABRSM level 7 book includes this Nocturne but changes it slightly from the Henle edition. Slightly simplifying the piece, I think it was felt that was required to bring it down to level 7.
My previous teacher had the ABRSM level 7 book and we were looking at it and comparing with the version I was using. Because she learnt it when she did her level 7 exams she was initially confused by what I was playing.
It might be worthwhile making sure you are working off the same edition of the piece.
In my edition of the Henle, there is mention in the Preface of two different versions of the work and my Henle volume includes both. So, it's not a simplification of the work by a modern editor, but differences, as Henle points out, among the "autograph, several manuscript copies, a first edition and an early impression." .
Regards,
Actually no, my Henle edition has two as well. The ABRSM level 7 version was different to both. Though I can't go back and confirm since I'm no longer with that teacher. Our conclusion together at the time was that the simplification was required to fit the piece within the guidelines for an ABRSM level 7 piece, though that was just our speculation.
Iยดve heard so many people slow down during the runs or it gets sloppy and very uneven (maybe I am too spoiled by this version by Rousseau lol).
I think it's perfectly OK to slow down a bit during the longest run especially. If you listen to the best pianists play this piece, my guess is a lot will do so. Not because they couldn't play it perfectly in time, but because it sound overly virtuosic or inappropriate played that way.
Iยดve heard so many people slow down during the runs or it gets sloppy and very uneven (maybe I am too spoiled by this version by Rousseau lol).
I think it's perfectly OK to slow down a bit during the longest run especially. If you listen to the best pianists play this piece, my guess is a lot will do so. Not because they couldn't play it perfectly in time, but because it sound overly virtuosic or inappropriate played that way.
I agree, I've always thought the runs were akin to sighs, in a way, as we come to the close. It's such a pensive piece. โค๏ธ
The ABRSM level 7 book includes this Nocturne but changes it slightly from the Henle edition. Slightly simplifying the piece, I think it was felt that was required to bring it down to level 7.
My previous teacher had the ABRSM level 7 book and we were looking at it and comparing with the version I was using. Because she learnt it when she did her level 7 exams she was initially confused by what I was playing.
It might be worthwhile making sure you are working off the same edition of the piece.
In my edition of the Henle, there is mention in the Preface of two different versions of the work and my Henle volume includes both. So, it's not a simplification of the work by a modern editor, but differences, as Henle points out, among the "autograph, several manuscript copies, a first edition and an early impression." .
Regards,
Actually no, my Henle edition has two as well. The ABRSM level 7 version was different to both. Though I can't go back and confirm since I'm no longer with that teacher. Our conclusion together at the time was that the simplification was required to fit the piece within the guidelines for an ABRSM level 7 piece, though that was just our speculation.
In that case it does surprise me from a pedagogical point of view (dare I say "integrity"?) that ABRSM would, at that level, present a simplified version of a piece for examination purposes when the repertoire for piano is so vast.
You can feel free to start a group, but you might also want to take a look here: Chopin Nocturne C Sharp Minor Study Group as we did this last year and there are some nice tips and thoughts in here.
Thanks cmb13, I'm reading through it now, lots of good stuff in there.
Now learning: Debussy Clar de Lune, Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, Joplin The Chrysanthemum Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
I found this piece challenging mostly to get a softer touch. What may be challenging to someone starting may be polyrhythms but I found the rhythms not a significant problem. I never really knew what to do with the dance-like section in the middle. That never made much sense. The scale runs however were always beyond me. I think it was lack of scale practice as I have heard poor performances that could do relatively clean scale runs. Enjoy learning it, it appears to be a very popular one !
Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Jรยณzef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
I never really knew what to do with the dance-like section in the middle. That never made much sense.
That part is actually the "village dance" section of his F minor concerto. This piece, and the concerto, have reminiscences of Poland, all his dearest memories of childhood spent in the countryside. Every summer Chopin and his close friends would leave Warsaw and travel to other friends or relative's homes, sometimes in the company of their music teacher, Jozef Elsner. It was quite an adventure for them, and created some of his fondest and dearest memories of growing up. He poured these memories into his compositions, especially his nocturnes and mazurkas (of which he insisted were not to be danced to, as they are personal recollections of his homeland). The Polish Uprising was occurring at the time of this writing, and he was unable to go home. He was never able to return to Poland and became an exile, and that yearning and sadness, and his desperate desire to see his family again, found its way into everything he wrote. Liszt wrote about Chopin's yearning in his book about him. He said that the Polish word "zal" expresses longing, melancholy, and grief, and that Chopin could find no other word to express the emotion in his music.
Chopin also borrowed from his other compositions when writing new pieces. Measures 21 to 29 of the C minor nocturne are actually the opening of the rondo finale in the F minor concerto, and measures 30 to 32 are from a song called "The Wish" that he composed years earlier. He wrote this piece for his sister Ludwicka, and it was really only meant for his closest family and friends because they were the only one who would understand his grief. He was a very private person. This piece was only performed for the first time on the 45th anniversary of his death, in Zelazowa Wola, where he was born.
Obviously I've been doing a lot of research since deciding to learn this piece. No, I haven't actually started it yet! I'm not quite ready yet. ๐โค๏ธ
.... and Chopin wrote this nocturne to help his sister learn the F minor concerto. You will see two slightly different endings in the nocturne editions as one version was from his sisterโs effects.
.... and Chopin wrote this nocturne to help his sister learn the F minor concerto. You will see two slightly different endings in the nocturne editions as one version was from his sisterโs effects.
I never really knew what to do with the dance-like section in the middle. That never made much sense.
That part is actually the "village dance" section of his F minor concerto. This piece, and the concerto, have reminiscences of Poland, all his dearest memories of childhood spent in the countryside. Every summer Chopin and his close friends would leave Warsaw and travel to other friends or relative's homes, sometimes in the company of their music teacher, Jozef Elsner. It was quite an adventure for them, and created some of his fondest and dearest memories of growing up. He poured these memories into his compositions, especially his nocturnes and mazurkas (of which he insisted were not to be danced to, as they are personal recollections of his homeland). The Polish Uprising was occurring at the time of this writing, and he was unable to go home. He was never able to return to Poland and became an exile, and that yearning and sadness, and his desperate desire to see his family again, found its way into everything he wrote. Liszt wrote about Chopin's yearning in his book about him. He said that the Polish word "zal" expresses longing, melancholy, and grief, and that Chopin could find no other word to express the emotion in his music.
Chopin also borrowed from his other compositions when writing new pieces. Measures 21 to 29 of the C minor nocturne are actually the opening of the rondo finale in the F minor concerto, and measures 30 to 32 are from a song called "The Wish" that he composed years earlier. He wrote this piece for his sister Ludwicka, and it was really only meant for his closest family and friends because they were the only one who would understand his grief. He was a very private person. This piece was only performed for the first time on the 45th anniversary of his death, in Zelazowa Wola, where he was born.
Obviously I've been doing a lot of research since deciding to learn this piece. No, I haven't actually started it yet! I'm not quite ready yet. ๐โค๏ธ
Thank you for the background. It makes some sense now.
I would not be in a rush to play this nocturne. I am surprised it was on the abrsm for grade 7. I think there technical challenges way beyond this grade. If you wanted my suggestion is to try and get the tonal control first from some other pieces first. Prelude e minor is a piece an example where it appears simple but you really can focus on controlling the notes. Shaping this melody quietly over chords needs very good tonal control.
I really did struggle to get the tonal control to play nocturne. It did put me off Chopin for a while and I have only recently returned. chopin is the hardest composer I found for tonal control. I think a piece needs to be on the easier side so you can spend time on it. I think I did not do this so I ended up struggling. If you spend most of the time to just get the notes and rhythms you often can't work on making it musical. When you hear really polished playing that is what makes it magic. There are plenty of Chopin pieces to try. I would tend now to search and hunt for an unusual one to play in a recital.
That part is actually the "village dance" section of his F minor concerto. This piece, and the concerto, have reminiscences of Poland, all his dearest memories of childhood spent in the countryside. Every summer Chopin and his close friends would leave Warsaw and travel to other friends or relative's homes, sometimes in the company of their music teacher, Jozef Elsner. It was quite an adventure for them, and created some of his fondest and dearest memories of growing up. He poured these memories into his compositions, especially his nocturnes and mazurkas (of which he insisted were not to be danced to, as they are personal recollections of his homeland). The Polish Uprising was occurring at the time of this writing, and he was unable to go home. He was never able to return to Poland and became an exile, and that yearning and sadness, and his desperate desire to see his family again, found its way into everything he wrote. Liszt wrote about Chopin's yearning in his book about him. He said that the Polish word "zal" expresses longing, melancholy, and grief, and that Chopin could find no other word to express the emotion in his music.
Chopin also borrowed from his other compositions when writing new pieces. Measures 21 to 29 of the C minor nocturne are actually the opening of the rondo finale in the F minor concerto, and measures 30 to 32 are from a song called "The Wish" that he composed years earlier. He wrote this piece for his sister Ludwicka, and it was really only meant for his closest family and friends because they were the only one who would understand his grief. He was a very private person. This piece was only performed for the first time on the 45th anniversary of his death, in Zelazowa Wola, where he was born.
Obviously I've been doing a lot of research since deciding to learn this piece. No, I haven't actually started it yet! I'm not quite ready yet. ๐โค๏ธ
Thanks so much for this excellent background information about the Nocturne. I really should do some of that kind of thing myself.
I'm still struggling away with it. Perhaps I'll never get it good enough to my satisfaction at my current skill level. But really I'm just stuck on the trills and the 35 note run near the end. I am struggling to the make trills fast and smooth and have exactly the same problem with the 35 note run, I don't expect to get it at full speed but I need it faster than i can currently do it and less out of control dynamics. I think Craig, cmb13's suggestion of facing up to those more difficult sections from the beginning and giving them attention early is a good one. I didn't do that and look at what I am stuck with now.
I had the rest of the piece done a couple of months ago while continuing to work on my trills, but because my focus has been so directed I'm making mistakes elsewhere in the piece again. I think I'll only bother coming back to get the rest of the piece fixed up when I'm happy with the trills and the long run.
I think I'll probably wait until the summer to start this piece. I've already played his E minor, B minor, A, and C minor preludes, and mazurka op. 67 no. 4. I actually have another mazurka that's in the pipeline, probably in the next couple months, so maybe by summer I'll be able to give this a shot.