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Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? #2938635 01/25/20 11:07 PM
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rintincop Offline OP
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Which action is lighter P125 or ES110? I find I am having to work too hard even on the ES110 action. I like actions on the light "fly away keys" side.


Professional | 1966 Mason & Hamlin | Kawai ES110 | Mojo 61 |
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Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2938670 01/26/20 02:40 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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I see you’re after light actions. The lightest possible action that is still good enough I’ve ever tested is that of Yamaha CP5. I haven’t tested CP4, maybe it’s the same but both are discontinued anyway.


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2938674 01/26/20 03:08 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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BTW, I see you’re very obsessed with downweight and upweight measurements only but those are not relevant in most cases since it’s the inertia (dynamic weight) of keys that makes it fatiguing for the arms and the inertia can’t be easily measured. Even a keyboard with low downweight can have enormous inertia.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2938679 01/26/20 03:50 AM
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peterws Offline
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I don't think the inertia on P125 or Es110 is great. I'd go for the Es, you'll not get lighter. The intersting thing is that you find it heavy . . .sounds like technique to me.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: CyberGene] #2938745 01/26/20 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I see you’re after light actions. The lightest possible action that is still good enough I’ve ever tested is that of Yamaha CP5. I haven’t tested CP4, maybe it’s the same but both are discontinued anyway.

Cp4 is not the same (nor as light) as the CP5 and CP1 were. I also found the actions in the Roland FP-7 and FP-7F to be comparably light. I think Kawai MP7 comes somewhat close, but they changed the action for the MP7SE and I haven't played that one yet. It's really hard to find light feeling hammer action boards these days. I'm thinking probably Kurzweil Forte would be best here. In a lower price range, the old Casios were nicely light, the first couple of generations of Privias (PX-x00, PX-x10). I never played the Px-x20 series. Later ones have felt a bit heavier/slower.

Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2938789 01/26/20 11:59 AM
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I had a CP4 and although it's considered a great action, I didn't love it. There is this initial resistance if you press lightly, it takes more pressure than you think to move the key. I never considered that realistic. I also felt the need to play harder to get fff and the bottoming out felt bad to my fingers. My new ES110 feels very nice (haven't played it enough to fully say it's great.)

When trying out the low price light entry pianos, I thought the P125 was sluggish due to, I think, the upweight. Also, my ears are tired of Yamaha samples on their portable pianos, except for my N2, which I love everyday to play.


AG N2 | ES 110 | REFACE CP | GK MK & MP amps
Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: CyberGene] #2938844 01/26/20 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, I see you’re very obsessed with downweight and upweight measurements only but those are not relevant in most cases since it’s the inertia (dynamic weight) of keys that makes it fatiguing for the arms and the inertia can’t be easily measured. Even a keyboard with low downweight can have enormous inertia.


Can you give some examples of digital pianos that have a notable heavier downweight (>15 gram) than another DP yet are generally perceived as lighter due to inertia?

Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2938858 01/26/20 02:46 PM
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Since you're looking at the P-125, it's worth noting that its GHS action is VERY hard to play near the fallboard due to the short keystick pivots, same as the Casio actions. This is even though the action itself is lightweight.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2938907 01/26/20 04:28 PM
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I tried the P125 and its keyboard action was much lighter than my CN37. Fast trills were much easier to play. But I don't know how the P125 compares to the ES110.

Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2939045 01/26/20 11:54 PM
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I have the P121 (same as P125 but less keys). It is really hard to play near the fallboard. My fingers cramped up after working on chords. That and the limited dynamics, I am looking to upgrade now.

Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: Gombessa] #2939062 01/27/20 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Since you're looking at the P-125, it's worth noting that its GHS action is VERY hard to play near the fallboard due to the short keystick pivots, same as the Casio actions. This is even though the action itself is lightweight.


One might imagine the same is true for the NU1 and its successor. Yamaha seem to get around that problem, who knows how? I got to like playing that instrument very much.


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Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2939070 01/27/20 02:15 AM
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With the Kawai ES110 I have taken to using Grand Piano 2 with the velocity Touch setting on “Light” and it is very playable. Also, the brighter Stage Piano 2 is very playable with Touch setting “Light”. I can go for many hours every day now with those settings without getting sore or tired like before. I don’t have to hit very hard with those two pianos using the Light Touch setting. The other four pianos didn’t work as well when using the Light Touch setting, they were too jumpy.


Professional | 1966 Mason & Hamlin | Kawai ES110 | Mojo 61 |
Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: sleutelbos] #2939093 01/27/20 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, I see you’re very obsessed with downweight and upweight measurements only but those are not relevant in most cases since it’s the inertia (dynamic weight) of keys that makes it fatiguing for the arms and the inertia can’t be easily measured. Even a keyboard with low downweight can have enormous inertia.


Can you give some examples of digital pianos that have a notable heavier downweight (>15 gram) than another DP yet are generally perceived as lighter due to inertia?

According to a table rintincop posted on the Musicplayer forums, the downweight of N1X varies between 94g in the bass, 71g in the middle (21g more than the standard of 50) and 63g in the upper. I’m not sure where this numbers come from and I’ll have to measure it myself (currently waiting for a special piano measuring weight to be delivered) but if we assume the numbers are right, I’d say N1X feels more non-fatiguing to play than many other pianos with lighter downweight.

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But my point was the opposite: you can make a piano have low downweight by adding lead, yet that will add to the inertia.

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/27/20 04:24 AM.

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Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: CyberGene] #2939095 01/27/20 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, I see you’re very obsessed with downweight and upweight measurements only but those are not relevant in most cases since it’s the inertia (dynamic weight) of keys that makes it fatiguing for the arms and the inertia can’t be easily measured. Even a keyboard with low downweight can have enormous inertia.


Can you give some examples of digital pianos that have a notable heavier downweight (>15 gram) than another DP yet are generally perceived as lighter due to inertia?

According to a table rintincop posted on the Musicplayer forums, the downweight of N1X varies between 94g in the bass, 71g in the middle (21g more than the standard of 50) and 63g in the upper. I’m not sure where this numbers come from and I’ll have to measure it myself (currently waiting for a special piano measuring weight to be delivered) but if we assume the numbers are right, I’d say N1X feels more non-fatiguing to play than many other pianos with lighter downweight.

[Linked Image]

But my point was the opposite: you can make a piano have low downweight by adding lead, yet that will add to the inertia.


That lists seems flawed to me,or it was measured in a way I dont quite understand. Kawai digitals are usually around +-55gram at middle C, not the 80-90 gram mentioned here for example. I also see digitals with identical actions and wildly different measurements (fp60 Vs fp90 for example). And a Steinway m170 with a downweight of 86 gram?! Maybe I am missing something?

In any case, in my (humble!) opinion with digitals (ignoring AvantGrand/Novus) downweight pretty much accurately informs me if how heavy they feel. So while it doesn't have to have this relation as you explai ed, in practice it seems to be a valid proxy.

Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2939097 01/27/20 04:45 AM
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FP-60 and FP-90 don't have identical actions. FP-10, FP-30 and FP-60 have.


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Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2939099 01/27/20 04:47 AM
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Yeah, I wonder about that data set.

It shows the distance to pivot for the N1X as 18 cm. Shorter than any other unit listed, save for a few of the slabs! How can that be?

Has anyone vetted this data?

Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: pawelsz] #2939101 01/27/20 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by pawelsz
FP-60 and FP-90 don't have identical actions. FP-10, FP-30 and FP-60 have.


They also dont match up. Difference in downweight in the bass between 60 and 10 is a whopping 20 gram. Average difference is 10 gram. Surely that can't be right?

Last edited by sleutelbos; 01/27/20 04:49 AM.
Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: MacMacMac] #2939105 01/27/20 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yeah, I wonder about that data set.

It shows the distance to pivot for the N1X as 18 cm. Shorter than any other unit listed, save for a few of the slabs! How can that be?

Has anyone vetted this data?


There is another set of measurements here: https://steveescoffery.com/digital-piano-buying-guide-from-piano-teacher/

Honestly they appear more believable to me.

Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2939107 01/27/20 05:06 AM
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Indeed, that list from the Musicplayer seems to be flawed, all data is pretty unrealistic.

I gave it a lot of thought and I agree that when speaking about digital piano actions where counterweights are more rarely added, the downweight and upweight are relevant measurements about how heavy the action will feel. The inertia thing might be more relevant to acoustic piano actions.

But I actually realized something that may be very important: on digital piano actions there's no escapement and so the hammer weight will be always pushing the key up and will act against your finger, even when holding the key down. This is very different than acoustic piano actions where the hammer is lifted through a leverage on the downstroke (1:5 ratio) but once the escapement is activated, the leverage is disengaged and the key is pushed up only by the double-escapement lever spring and the non-amplified weight of the hammer head and the wippen weight. Which means holding down the keys at bottom on an acoustic piano is not fatiguing compared to on a digital piano. Since fatigue is related to work (the physical term), the fingers will do more work when holding a key with a higher force. And cumulatively that may feel as more fatiguing.


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Re: Which action is lighter P125 or Es110? [Re: rintincop] #2939112 01/27/20 05:09 AM
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Read his page carefully. There are inconsistencies and inaccuracies.

So I'm wondering whether this page is just a revenue grab. Is he paid for the reviews?

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