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Sauter questions #2937972 01/24/20 10:04 AM
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We are considering purchasing a used Sauter and would love some feedback and input from this experienced forum.

First, we hear about the golden age of Steinways. Are there any "great years" or "years to avoid" for Sauters? I noticed that there is a sudden increase in serial numbers between 1960 and 1980 for Sauters (https://www.robertspianos.com/cdetails.php?ID=133&Make=Sauter-Pianos). Does anyone know if they just released a lot of pianos during those two decades or if they had a different serial number system that occurred? I'm worried about times of high, possibly mass production.

Second, does anyone have advice for pricing used Sauters? It's so hard for me to estimate a price since I see so few Sauters on the market. We're looking at a 5'10" Sauter that is 50 years old but in excellent condition from single owner. Any feedback would be much appreciated.

I would appreciate any thoughts or feedback on the Sauters. Thank you!

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Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2938216 01/24/20 09:11 PM
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In 1961 Sauter were utilising new building and machinery .It was also a time of real creativity. In 1968 Carl Sauter took over and between 1974 and 1983 a new bigger factory was built

in three phases .So more buildings ,more skilled craft workers ,perhaps some new machinery.

Remember during the war no pianos in Germany were being made.Severe bombing,

people were more interested in just coping after the war. The 50's.possibly many could not afford pianos ?

So --1961 new buildings and machinery, perhaps more workers

1968 Carl Sauter -inventor and designer

1974--a much bigger factory, built in three phases more craftsmen workers .

1983--new large factory completed .

1985--awards won in Paris for upright pianos 

and the 185 grand .

Sent from my Samsung device1936

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2938217 01/24/20 09:21 PM
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Sauter has never mass produced pianos now or ever.
For mass production between the 60's and 80's
look at Yamaha and Kawai pianos during that time.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 01/24/20 09:22 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2938374 01/25/20 10:43 AM
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Lady Bird, Thanks for the helpful response! The explanation about the war makes sense. I was surprised to see the jump to 50k between 1960 and 1980 and then fall beck down to 35k between 1980 and 2000 and it seems to be similar rates 2000-current. Glad to hear Sauter has never mass produced pianos.

Anyone has ideas on how to best estimate pricing on used Sauters? I'm having a hard time finding comparables in North America. . . .

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2938382 01/25/20 11:05 AM
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What is the age and model Sauter that you are you thinking of ?

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2938405 01/25/20 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SHP8
Lady Bird, Thanks for the helpful response! The explanation about the war makes sense. I was surprised to see the jump to 50k between 1960 and 1980 and then fall beck down to 35k between 1980 and 2000 and it seems to be similar rates 2000-current. Glad to hear Sauter has never mass produced pianos.

Anyone has ideas on how to best estimate pricing on used Sauters? I'm having a hard time finding comparables in North America. . . .

There is a depreciation table in Larry Fines Piano Buyer that does include pianos that are 50+ years but much depends on the condition of that piano, it makes it extremely difficult. How does it sound, how does it play, how do the hammers, strings and soundboard look? What has been replaced? When was the last time it was tuned or maintained?

For any piano that’s 50 years old, you really need a piano tech’s inspection to determine a reasonable price and whether or not it’s worth buying.

Best Wishes. Sauter’s are top notch pianos.


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Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2938947 01/26/20 06:27 PM
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I just thought would add some figures of numbers of pianos
made in Germany over those years .
In 1935 only 4,000 were made .This is a sharp decline from from 1930 when 20,000
were made.
During wars years none made .
In 1960 -- W Germany made 16,000 ,, E Germany (Soviet)--- 10,000
1970-- W Germany made 24,000,, E Germany " ---- 21,000
1980---W Germany made 31,000 ,, E Germany " ----- 28,000


1960---Japan made 48,000
1970--- 273,000
1980-- 392,000

The above numbers come from The New Grove ( The Piano ,1988 )
The historic section of SAUTER come from SAUTER Pianoforte Manufaktur

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2938951 01/26/20 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SHP8
Lady Bird, Thanks for the helpful response! The explanation about the war makes sense. I was surprised to see the jump to 50k between 1960 and 1980 and then fall beck down to 35k between 1980 and 2000 and it seems to be similar rates 2000-current. Glad to hear Sauter has never mass produced pianos.

Anyone has ideas on how to best estimate pricing on used Sauters? I'm having a hard time finding comparables in North America. . . .

SHP4 Your figures sound very inflated from the figures I found .
Mine are ALL pianos made from the whole of W Germany .
Only W Germany here is applicable as that refers to where SAUTER was.
Sauter was a small piano manufacturer at that time .

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2939003 01/26/20 10:19 PM
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I saw an old Sauter upright on Craigslist a year or so ago for only $200. I've been intrigued by the idea of getting an upright, to sort of poke around in. Never had an upright. Anyway, I wish I'd jumped on it, because it didn't last long.



And still I dream she'll come to me
That we will live the years together
But there are dreams that cannot be
And there are storms we cannot weather
Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2939005 01/26/20 10:37 PM
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So a rough calculation --Sometime in the year 2000 -- serial no 109300

My piano arrived in Canada in early 2017 (not sure when ? )according to Sauter .

So perhaps made in 2016 -- serial no 121002

So between 2000 and 2016 ---- 11,702 pianos were made .

So in each year - since year 2000 to 2016 roughly 7,31 pianos were made each year .(731.375)

Of course may have been late 2016 or early 2017 ,therefore could be less .(600 ?)

Not sure when piano 109300 was made in the year 2000 .,early or late ?

Tricky to work out exactly how many made a year .



Last edited by Lady Bird; 01/26/20 10:41 PM. Reason: Spelling
Re: Sauter questions [Re: Retsacnal] #2939029 01/26/20 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
I saw an old Sauter upright on Craigslist a year or so ago for only $200. I've been intrigued by the idea of getting an upright, to sort of poke around in. Never had an upright. Anyway, I wish I'd jumped on it, because it didn't last long.


Did you try it ? The price sounds amazing.

Re: Sauter questions [Re: Lady Bird] #2939034 01/26/20 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
I saw an old Sauter upright on Craigslist a year or so ago for only $200. I've been intrigued by the idea of getting an upright, to sort of poke around in. Never had an upright. Anyway, I wish I'd jumped on it, because it didn't last long.


Did you try it ? The price sounds amazing.

No, by the time I tried to contact them, it was already gone. It was older, which reflected in the price I'm sure.



And still I dream she'll come to me
That we will live the years together
But there are dreams that cannot be
And there are storms we cannot weather
Re: Sauter questions [Re: Lady Bird] #2939073 01/27/20 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I just thought would add some figures of numbers of pianos
made in Germany over those years .
In 1935 only 4,000 were made .This is a sharp decline from from 1930 when 20,000
were made.
During wars years none made .
In 1960 -- W Germany made 16,000 ,, E Germany (Soviet)--- 10,000
1970-- W Germany made 24,000,, E Germany " ---- 21,000
1980---W Germany made 31,000 ,, E Germany " ----- 28,000


1960---Japan made 48,000
1970--- 273,000
1980-- 392,000

The above numbers come from The New Grove ( The Piano ,1988 )
The historic section of SAUTER come from SAUTER Pianoforte Manufaktur

If the above numbers are correct ,which considering the source one would expect.
71,000 pianos were made in in W Germany between 1960 and 1980.
According to the Sauter serial numbers 51,000 were made in W Germany between 1960
and 80 ?

So it does not make sense ? Do I miscalculate ?
There could be a change in the serial numbers at some date ?
Some other German manufacturers were also making pianos in W Germany
Bechstein was owned by Baldwin.(in US ?) Steingraeber were they in W Germany ?
I think Seiler was was making pianos in Sweden or Denmark? Then went
back to Germany .Schimmel was in W Germany.Grotrian in W Germany I think ?
Feurich ,Scheidmayor were still making in 1980 in W Germany.
Pfeiffer still making a few great pianos there .I am sure there were quite a few others
I have left out .
Of course Bluthner in Leipzig was in E Germany. So were many others like August
Forster.
So I do not know the mystery behind the change in the Sauter serial numbers between
1960 and 1980.

The last serial no number given in Pierce is 115700 made between 2007 to 2008
Sauter piano 121002 was made in 2016 .So the number of pianos produced between
2007 to 2016 (or 2017 )will be about 600 or 700 units a year .

This numbers would far too large if we take the serial numbers between 1960 and 1980
as numbers of pianos made by Sauter.

The numbers of pianos made between 2007 to 2016 (or 2017) as 600 to 700 would lie between
what Roberts Pianos suggests (800) and what is stated in Piano Buyer in Brand Profiles which
I think is 500 .

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2939080 01/27/20 03:07 AM
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So my aim was to work out how many piano.were made in 2016 or 2017
The contrast would be much more magnified in the number of units made
per year in the years 1960 to 1980 suggested by the given serial numbers .

So to the OP I see what you are referring to .I can only think between 1960
and 1980 the actual serial numbering system changed .Perhaps with the
completion of the new factory in Spaichingen.

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2939331 01/27/20 03:26 PM
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It all seems illogical today --- was it full moon last night ?

Re: Sauter questions [Re: Lady Bird] #2939806 01/28/20 02:25 PM
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Lady Bird, Sorry for the late response. I just checked the forum today. You went through quite a few calculations! I agree, perhaps the serial number system changed -
The piano is I believe a 1968, 180 cm" piano. We will see it tomorrow and I can keep you updated! We tried to go to some piano dealers this weekend to check out some other Sauters but no luck - they are hard to find in North America!

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2940023 01/28/20 10:50 PM
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Yes they are unicorns ! It can be difficult to find any used European piano in N America .
If it's from 1968 condition is very important. So I would suggest having a good technician
check the piano.
I once saw a German made Seiler which had an awful. number of problems.
This piano had been neglected and I do not think could hold its tuning anymore ?
The piano was made if I remember correctly in the late 90's ???
Pianos are like people they get worse with age unless they are restored or rebuilt .
You never know the piano be fine .It is worth paying a technician to do the check.
Best wishes!

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2940340 01/29/20 04:49 PM
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The piano arrived and technician has looked and it and it has not major problems- we got lucky. I like but don't love the sound...yet. The technician said it hasn't been played much and things will change with use. I'll see if I can twist my daughter's arm to let me record her playing so I can share the sound.

Re: Sauter questions [Re: SHP8] #2940349 01/29/20 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SHP8
The piano arrived and technician has looked and it and it has not major problems- we got lucky. I like but don't love the sound...yet. The technician said it hasn't been played much and things will change with use. I'll see if I can twist my daughter's arm to let me record her playing so I can share the sound.

Perhaps it needs voicing ? I tried an old Schimmel grand here and yes it could have done with voicing and regulation! Choose a good RPT (to be sure ) It would be VERY worthwhile .
It will be a different sounding ,responsive piano. Best wishes !!!

Re: Sauter questions [Re: Lady Bird] #2940381 01/29/20 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird

Yes they are unicorns ! It can be difficult to find any used European piano in N America .
If it's from 1968 condition is very important. So I would suggest having a good technician
check the piano.
I once saw a German made Seiler which had an awful. number of problems.
This piano had been neglected and I do not think could hold its tuning anymore ?
The piano was made if I remember correctly in the late 90's ???
Pianos are like people they get worse with age unless they are restored or rebuilt .
You never know the piano be fine .It is worth paying a technician to do the check.
Best wishes!

I did give the above advice .Perhaps voicing will be what this piano needs .If so it should done
by a capable technician. It could take a few hours to do it properly.
Perhaps someone can advise?


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