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why MIDI 2.0 ? #2937845 01/24/20 01:06 AM
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HarmonySmurf Offline OP
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I have watched a couple videos and don't see why they bothered to make a 2.0 version for MIDI. I can see the potential to have more expression with there being more than 127 velocity values but don't know if that is even a perceptible problem with regular MIDI. What am I missing?


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Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2937861 01/24/20 02:09 AM
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It’s a pretty boring upgrade. The bi-directional communication sounds gee-whiz neato, but they have yet to develop the killer app that makes it practical for most users. I feel like this will be useful only for hardcore users, otherwise for the rest of us MIDI 2.0 is a big <shoulder shrug>


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Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2937876 01/24/20 02:54 AM
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Agreed. There's just not much there.

Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938018 01/24/20 12:16 PM
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MIDI2.0 could ease some tasks. With a synthesizer, some DAW could make you change the sound with a menu, but need a list of instruments and no common format exists. (Cubase, Logic, Sonar have all their standard even if the Sonar ins file is supported by some other DAW) Then synthesizer makers often just list the instruments in the paper/PDF documentation and you have to report by hand the 3 numbers (bank MSB, LSB, program).

The first useful thing MIDI2.0 could do is to download the instrument list from the synthesizer to the DAW.

A second interesting thing would be to download the setup of the synthesizer, store it in your DAW project and upload it when you open the DAW project. No need to install a specific plugin.

Then the technology is promising when you use a synthesizer with a DAW. Some other things could be interesting (profile exchange) but I am less convinced. We need a profile exchange protocol and also a useful set of profile.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938029 01/24/20 12:40 PM
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It seems debatable whether one can distinguish more than 127 velocity layers. But hey, we'll take 'em.

MIDI 2.0 will hopefully yield other benefits. Examples:

- It is suppose to reduce/eliminate jittering when recording MIDI events (something I've encountered).

- Let's say you have a digital piano with MIDI 2.0 and a touchscreen. You hook it up to your laptop to play Pianoteq, and you're able to control PT parameters from the touchscreen. Dont' know if that will happen but that would be cool.

Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938048 01/24/20 01:35 PM
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guyl Offline
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The main advantage would be in terms of communications speed, so reduced latency. MIDI is a serial interface at 31.25 kB. That's awfully slow by today's standards. So you'd get reduced latency and/or the ability to send a lot more data without unruly delay.


What do snowflakes and Chickerings have in common? There are no two exactly alike!
Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938049 01/24/20 01:37 PM
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I can discern all the way up to 127, but I’m not sure if I can go any further.
I’ll get back to you on 128 and above once I try out MIDI 2.0. (The last point/period indicates the end of the sentence; not 2point0point)! (Exclamation ‘point’ used for emphasis)!

Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: guyl] #2938052 01/24/20 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by guyl
The main advantage would be in terms of communications speed, so reduced latency. MIDI is a serial interface at 31.25 kB.
Currently, MIDI can run at much faster speeds via USB, ethernet, etc. The MIDI Association emphasized that in the comments in this post

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2...n-tighter-timing-backward-compatibility/

One major benefit will be, "Tighter timing...TimeStamps specifically designed to reduce jitter".

Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938080 01/24/20 02:35 PM
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this comment from the synthtopia thread was hilarious:
BEETHOVEN ANNOUNCES MUSIC 2
“Deaf people are gonna be able to here it this time around.” – Beethoven

I could see the standard MIDI latency being considered a bit slow at 31kB.


6 years learning the ukulele and started playing toy piano in late July 2019
Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: Ctopher7] #2938095 01/24/20 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ctopher7
- Let's say you have a digital piano with MIDI 2.0 and a touchscreen. You hook it up to your laptop to play Pianoteq, and you're able to control PT parameters from the touchscreen. Dont' know if that will happen but that would be cool.


I haven’t thought of it, but it seems possible, but it requires a bidirectional link from Pianoteq to the keyboard through the DAW. 3 things have to evolve... even 2 may imply a chicken and egg vicious circle, 3 is more important. And one of the main seller of VST (Native Instruments) would prefer to have a monopole of such an integration (NKS system).

-

And yes, MIDI over USB exists since circa 1999... no need of MIDI 2.0 to upgrade the bandwidth. But a USB1.0 has a 1ms pooling period... near a 3 bytes transfer at 31.25 Kbit/s

-

About the improved velocity resolution, it is already possible to have a 14bits resolution with a standard extension (implemented by Casio and a very few others). Trying to play multiple notes at the same velocity imply a +2/-2 variation... I mustn’t be good enough to appreciate a finer resolution. But the Phoenix Piano has been built taking into account professional pianists and a 1300 level resolution seemed a god enough compromise.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/24/20 03:12 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938293 01/25/20 05:22 AM
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This is mostly not about pianos. It more affects people who are into say Akai control surfaces, you know with the array of soft keys, or there's a Samson unit at the low end, and Aura at the high end. If you're doing live performance work with different configurations for each setlist item or even more than one per item. The next generation of that style of human interface hardware will have ways to become a better user interface for all the next gen MIDI 2 instruments, they'll talk to each other and capture parameter labels and make a parameter easier to route to whatever array element. I suppose for the illuminated ones, cue the user with a desired color pattern. Should work w/stage and disco lighting too, if you want the laser fog button next to the hi-hat trigger or like that. Property exchange and profile configuration are the most significant changes in MIDI 2 or so it seems to me. Developers have to figure out how to make this work in practice. Some of that stuff also maybe good for extended studio work and could make it affordable for home studios to be closer to pro studio automation.

Last edited by eclectic; 01/25/20 05:23 AM. Reason: minor correction
Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938328 01/25/20 08:44 AM
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I think you're right, eclectic-san.

For those of us who just play the piano, MIDI is nothing more than a conduit to the VST libraries. It's just a cable.

Fancy advances in MIDI mean nothing us.

Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938396 01/25/20 11:38 AM
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As I understand it, its not possible to send multiple midi messages at the exact same time which means one can't really play two notes exactly together (even if it's not noticeable). Is there any difference there in midi 2.0?


"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein
Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938417 01/25/20 12:19 PM
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If you send MIDI event on USB you can already send 2 events in the same frame. No need of MIDI2.0 to do this.

However, if the USB polling period is 1ms, every notes will be received at fixed time N.0000ms. MIDI2.0 will add time stamps which permit to have more precise time.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/25/20 12:20 PM.

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Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: johanibraaten] #2938515 01/25/20 04:55 PM
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Johanibraaten is correct and not only for MIDI but all serial interfaces, two things don't happen at once. With USB's faster information rate you can do more tricks like load samples fast, and so on. But with USB your precious practice time is entirely devoted to manipulating the difference between pins 2 and 3, which forms a single serial information channel. It's part of the way to make USB faster without getting confounded by noise. There is only one wire in a MIDI connection that's transmitting data, pin 5. Faster still, If I understand HDMI correctly, it uses 3 serial lines and multiplexes/demultiplexes them, and all this is just to make extremely sure that 1 thing happens at once, just when it is supposed to, to literally a fraction of a nanosecond.

With music, video, and other stuff the issue for system architects is very often whether the information rate is fast enough to convince your ears and eyes and fingers. For piano specifically it's whether the rate is fast enough to capture finger motion to within a perforrmer's ability to perceive. But every MIDI problem I ever had was not the fault of MIDI, it's usually a computer's latency, sometimes an instrument's latency and you say to yourself, well that's why it was a bargain instrument, or sometimes its, bleeping computer. In other words my experience is that sync problems from fingering to orchestrating, they all have to do with how an instrument or computer-industry manufacturer implements MIDI, not MIDI itself. It's my understanding that if you have a complicated setup and you do run out of milliseconds, instead you use multi-MIDI and/or multi-USB interface on a master computer and everything else can slave to that. Maybe this is a problem I would like to have someday but MIDI's been a friend for a long time yet I myself never had the good fortune to have a fancy project that needed master-slave.

Edit: Frederic is also correct and I want to add that in MIDI Running Mode we're not sending the Note On instruction for every note, it's slightly analogous to sending more than one note in a USB frame. Another reason why MIDI delay just doesn't seem to be a perceivable thing in gear that's implemented well, though YMMV for fancy stuff.

Last edited by eclectic; 01/25/20 05:00 PM.
Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938526 01/25/20 05:15 PM
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Yes USB uses 2 pins (2 and 3) to transmit data (but they form a single serial link since only the difference of voltage is considered), but MIDI uses also 2 pins (4 and 5 - yes a current loop data link needs two wires). Does it matters ? USB 1.0 is 12,000kbit/s compared to MIDI 31.25kbit/s... the number of lines doesn’t only matter.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/25/20 05:16 PM.

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Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938542 01/25/20 05:54 PM
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Casio was one of the few selling digital pianos with high-res MIDI. However, I recall their marketing has stepped away from that. The PianoTeq forums has some good posts on this. Below Mark Polishook tested the Casio system but concluded that Casio was just registering 128 levels of data and adding some random velocity data.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...s-for-pianoteq-and-vpc1.html#Post2880913

But don't fear, Roland just released the first MIDI 2.0 "ready" controller, the A88MKII. I don't think the 2.0 spec has been publicly finalised and don't know what "ready" means. I was an early adopter of some Japanese HD ready television gear and that did not work out so well as the finalised HD standards were different lol.

Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938721 01/26/20 08:29 AM
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Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2938726 01/26/20 08:47 AM
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Re: why MIDI 2.0 ? [Re: newer player] #2938909 01/26/20 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by eclectic
Johanibraaten is correct and not only for MIDI but all serial interfaces, two things don't happen at once. With USB's faster information rate you can do more tricks like load samples fast, and so on. But with USB your precious practice time is entirely devoted to manipulating the difference between pins 2 and 3, which forms a single serial information channel. It's part of the way to make USB faster without getting confounded by noise. There is only one wire in a MIDI connection that's transmitting data, pin 5. Faster still, If I understand HDMI correctly, it uses 3 serial lines and multiplexes/demultiplexes them, and all this is just to make extremely sure that 1 thing happens at once, just when it is supposed to, to literally a fraction of a nanosecond.

With music, video, and other stuff the issue for system architects is very often whether the information rate is fast enough to convince your ears and eyes and fingers. For piano specifically it's whether the rate is fast enough to capture finger motion to within a perforrmer's ability to perceive. But every MIDI problem I ever had was not the fault of MIDI, it's usually a computer's latency, sometimes an instrument's latency and you say to yourself, well that's why it was a bargain instrument, or sometimes its, bleeping computer. In other words my experience is that sync problems from fingering to orchestrating, they all have to do with how an instrument or computer-industry manufacturer implements MIDI, not MIDI itself. It's my understanding that if you have a complicated setup and you do run out of milliseconds, instead you use multi-MIDI and/or multi-USB interface on a master computer and everything else can slave to that. Maybe this is a problem I would like to have someday but MIDI's been a friend for a long time yet I myself never had the good fortune to have a fancy project that needed master-slave.

Edit: Frederic is also correct and I want to add that in MIDI Running Mode we're not sending the Note On instruction for every note, it's slightly analogous to sending more than one note in a USB frame. Another reason why MIDI delay just doesn't seem to be a perceivable thing in gear that's implemented well, though YMMV for fancy stuff.

Originally Posted by newer player
Casio was one of the few selling digital pianos with high-res MIDI. However, I recall their marketing has stepped away from that. The PianoTeq forums has some good posts on this. Below Mark Polishook tested the Casio system but concluded that Casio was just registering 128 levels of data and adding some random velocity data.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...s-for-pianoteq-and-vpc1.html#Post2880913

But don't fear, Roland just released the first MIDI 2.0 "ready" controller, the A88MKII. I don't think the 2.0 spec has been publicly finalised and don't know what "ready" means. I was an early adopter of some Japanese HD ready television gear and that did not work out so well as the finalised HD standards were different lol.

Great response, thank you! I'm not very technically oriented so I'll have to reed the posts a few times more to get it all but I'll get there:) My piano doesn't have USB audio so I use a ESI MIDI-to-USB interface and it seems like I can play two tones at the exact same time but no more than that. Theoretically this could be an issue if you play a piece with big chords that have to be very even. Is this adressed in MIDI 2.0 and how does this work with internal sound sources in DP:s? Is that also a "serial interface" where nothing happens at the same time or does it work different (or is that a secret)?


"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein
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