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I've decided to make Chopin's nocturne op 48 no 02 my next project. It's been going pretty well and I'm making genuine progress everyday. I find it a reasonably difficult nocturne, but it's not out of my league.

However, I have a problem with the left hand in the first and third section.

It's obvious that the left and right hand should sound as if intertwined. But I just can't seem to get the left hand to "sing" as it should. It either seems rushed, or wooden and stiff.

Are there any tips for the left hand? How should I use the pedal?

Is your difficulty with the 3 against 2 rhythm? Count each separate beat with 1 2 & 3 playing the triplets on 1 2 3 and the doublets on 1 &.

Once you are playing it without counting in that way, fine tune it when you practice by listening alternately to the doublets and triplets when playing to get each smoothed out and well shaped.

I never had any musical education or understand the theory behind it. I just sat down many years ago behind a keyboard when I was 15. I am 26 now and have my own piano. I can read sheet music and know all the symbols but I have no Idea of the theory.

I don't really understand what you mean with:



For example, the Nocturne no 20 also has groups of four notes in the left hand but they are played in the same tempo.The nocturne op 48 no 02 has some kind of sweeping motion. Like the first three notes are faster than the fourth. As if your hand makes a rotating motion.

But it's really difficult to pedal. It either sounds forced or stiff,

I know this will not be the answer you are looking for, and will not be what you want to hear, but my opinion is that your rate of progress will be enhanced significantly by working with a teacher.

I agree with Sweelinck. You will need a teacher, this piece is quite difficult, nothing for a self-taught pianist. If you still want to try to make it on your own: the left hand is not really singing, the right hand is. The left hand pattern is always a triplet followed by a fourth, giving a broken chord harmony. The sustain pedal should be applied on the first note of each triplet and released after the fourth before the beginning of the next triplet and the next harmony.
There is another issue: you are playing this piece on a budget DP. On that instrument it will not sound like in the recordings by professional pianists you might have heard on Youtube - you won't be able to bring the melody in the right hand out because the left hand accompaniment will always be as loud as the right hand not matter how soft you try to play the former. I have recorded this piece with the internal sound of my silent system (Chopin, nocturne 48/2) and had the same problem, therefore I do not like my recording and will presumably replace it with a new recording using a VST. If it sounds like that on your DP try to play it on an acoustic grand or with a VST and you will have the impression to be playing a completely different piece.

That's true. But I really like figuring things out for myself. I'm not saying I won't benefit from having a teacher, but I really like to do it by myself. I have no intention of being a concert pianist or to earn my money with it. It's simply my favourite hobby. The realisation that I'm improving by myself is a very satisfying feeling. Maybe in the future I might consider looking for a teacher, but for now that is not something I want.



I'm aware of this. But that's not a problem for me. I knew this when I bought this DP. It'll always sound better on a real piano.



This is helpful, thank you.

I'm actually making huge progress playing this piece since I posted this thread. Even though it will never be as good as a professional recording, especially on a DP, but the fact that I'm improving is an amazing feeling.

Your help is appreciated

Hi Dirkjan
I am confused about your different threads: here you are working On 48 2 , which you been have told in difficult but in another thread you acknowledge you choose music that is too difficult and abandon it before completion. You state you should work on some easier prelude.

Why haven’t you moved onto the preludes?

It is of course your choice. Many/most students are not able to figure out for themselves everything they would learn about a piece from a teacher. Maybe you are the exception.

As an example, the first time a student works on a piece with 3 against 2 rhythm, a teacher will guide the student in learning how to count and play such rhythmic constructs. Then the next time the student is confronted with such a rhythm, he or she will have the skills to approach it appropriately. The same is true for a wide range of other musicianship and interpretive skills.

You might consider setting up a first trial lesson and playing Chopin 9/2 for the teacher. See if the teacher says you have gotten everything out of it that there is to convey. Maybe you have and are the exceptional student, but most self-taught pianists will find that they have more to work on, and more to learn from a piece they considered fully learned.

I think you make some good points. I might benefit from a teacher because at the moment I have no reference point for my skill. I can compare it some professional recordings but that will just leave me disappointed and unmotivated. Or I could one of my friends for help or guidance, which is also a bad idea. They wouldn't distinguish a beautiful Ballad from a frog playing chopsticks.

Unfortunately, I don't have the funds or correct the social network for a private teacher. What I can do is use the Internet. It might nog nearly be as good as a private teacher, but I can still ask some questions. And as people have proven, they are willing to help.

I'm actually going to dig around a bit to see what would cost if I chase the bargains. Maybe just for once week. Just to get "a listening ear" pun intended. I've also received a book of excercises and scales (Hanon) from a friend of my mother (who doesn't live in this country and I'm not able to contact.)

You made me realize that however fun and exciting it is to do everything on your own, it might be very helpful to involve some other people, either as a mentor or teacher, or as critics and people who might see things I not see myself.

Thank you. I appreciate this.

Dirkjan, linkerhand alleen, tot het loopt, dan 2 tegen 3 ritme oefenen, het kost tijd, maar het kan, het zit'm in het ritme, the flow will come after some time, take it, don't hurry!

Bump this topic but I have finally followed your advice and found myself a teacher, a great and professional one. It's amazing! And he told me that I was way more skilled that I innitially said I thought I was. I was too modest. That's nice to hear.

I now have daily hour practices to do, and helps me pick out easier starter nocturnes to begin with. I have op 9 no 2 almost perfected to my taste, and Waltz no 19 is almost done. I still sometimes try this piece op 48 no 2, and it goes a lot better now. It still is hard to get the emotional sadness in it. The right had melody in itself is kinda dry and bland, so to get it singing is pretty difficult.

If you don't understand this questions about polyrhythms, you don't know what you're doing and the nocturne most certainly is out of your league. How can you play it if you don't know what it is?

I'm back after a long while. Never thought I'd say this, but you're absolutely right. I have a teacher now, I understand what was meant with polyrhytms but my teacher says that this piece might be out of my league anyway. He encourages to leave it be and work on my current project (nocturne op 37 no 01 and 15 no 03, which are, as he says, in my league).

Having a teacher was in a way very confronting, scary but also very inspiring and helpfull. He knows where my weak points are. And even though he says that I have a lot to learn, me eagerness and motivation was wel received.

It is indeed very difficult to judge your own playing accurately and fairly. Having someone that is an expert in the field give you a fair judgement was something that I needed. It gave me the boost that I needed.

I’m excited to see the thread and disappointed after reading it. I had a question about the ending of the piece. But the discussion does not seem to cover it. If anyone is interested in my question, please read this. Thanks

I found at least three different versions for measure 136. The eighth note runs from B sharp to A sharp is over the last eighth note triplet and quarter note in two versions at slightly different spot and on the last note of the triplet and quarter note in another one.

It is a wonderful piece that leaves me in awe when practicing. It gives me goosebumps when I hear the the transition into the middle section from measure 56 to 57 for example. It sounds like E on the right hand and F sharp on the left in measure 56 resolving into F in the first chord of the measure 57 smoothly. It’s just one example. There are a lot of beautiful gems and the construction of the piece is superb. I love the piece.

I don't play the piece but was interested to look at the run at the end.
The C# that's being trilled is marked as a whole note.
Mikuli respects that. He shows all four beats in the left hand being played and then the run happens leading to the A# and left hand F#.
Cortot draws a line from the second beat F# to the beginning of the run, which then begins before the third beat in the left hand.
The Peters version is half-way between those two, as is Klindworth.
Breitkopf begins the run ON the third beat.

(Gotta love IMSLP!!)

Well, this is a nocturne, FarmGirl. Who needs math when you're sleepy??? The piece is smorzando-ing off to bed. Is there any time? I'd suggest you do the trill until you've had enough and then do the run.
And after that brilliantly "helpful" advice I'll smorzando along

And then I find that a bunch of old men disagree with me. Sorry, FarmGirl. The people who wrote the notes in the Paderewski edition authoritatively and with precision proclaim:

I, however, am much too tranquil to react to disparagement of my tranquility.

I listened to several well known performers and they all seem to do the run differently. I decided to follow Mikuli and GE - they do not begin the scale run until after the last note in the base. My reason is that it is the ending. I would like to end it beautifully and sounding effortlessly. The last thing I would like to do is to get tense in the end trying to distribute the left hand note rhythmically correctly while not sounding forced. Of course all most every thing can be facilitated by spending time and effort. But is it worth it? I don’t think so.

I don't understand the suggestion that starting the run anywhere before the last note means that the run becomes tense. The result may be just the opposite; if you wait too long to start the run it becomes a bit of a rush. The notes in the run don't necessarily have to "fit" in, mathematically, with anything in the left hand. It's just a freely-rising scale passage that can start anywhere in that last measure, as per several editions.

If started after the last beat in the measure then either that measure is inordinately lengthened out of proportion, even to the smorz., or the run is a scramble. Let the scale effortlessly die away gently over the left hand accompaniment which, can, of course, slow down as it, too, gently dies away.

Regards,

Bruce, I understand what you are saying. I think what you mentioned is one of the reasons why Padewski edition did not use Mukuli and GE versions. Please listen to Rubinstein performance. He seemed to be using Mukuli or GE versions in which the scale starts with the last two notes of the LH. It sounds rather natural and smooth to me.

I would concurr with Bruce. I find that starting earlier the run and playing it together with the last beats provides a smoother ending and also with more continuity. Great respect to Runbinstein, but I find that other versions works a little better in that case like Pollini.