2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
59 registered members (bxrdad1, bobrunyan, Boboulus, Burkie, Beowulf, BachToTheFuture, Catlady, 36251, 14 invisible), 357 guests, and 442 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 118 of 125 1 2 116 117 118 119 120 124 125
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: EddyN1x] #2937047 01/22/20 10:32 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 127
B
BachToTheFuture Online Content
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
B
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 127
Originally Posted by EddyN1x
Unfortunately, I also have to say that the sound of the N1x via speakers is rather muffled and indirect. I also play a Yamaha S6 grand piano and it sounds much more direct and brilliant.
But I've found that it's not the speakers, it's the sound generation. If you connect external speakers, the sound will be more direct, but not brighter.


Of course.
Even an U3 makes the difference.
I also played a Steinway B211 in the same shop and the bass where far better... amazing !
But I bought the N1X.


Work in progress : Moszkowski study Op. 72 no. 10 in G minor
My piano : Kawai ES8
(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: EddyN1x] #2937052 01/22/20 11:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 772
D
David B Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 772
Originally Posted by EddyN1x
Unfortunately, I also have to say that the sound of the N1x via speakers is rather muffled and indirect. I also play a Yamaha S6 grand piano and it sounds much more direct and brilliant.
But I've found that it's not the speakers, it's the sound generation. If you connect external speakers, the sound will be more direct, but not brighter.


The sound is definitely not direct because of the speaker placement. It's like the player perspective on a real acoustic piano.The sound is more direct if you place your head over the hammers compared to just sitting at the bench.

However, when you say "not brilliant" are you talking about all the piano sounds ( i.e., CFX and Bose)? Also, you can adjust the brilliance setting in the N1X. There are two more brilliance options above the default normal setting. Have you tried those?

God Bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 01/22/20 11:18 AM.

Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Mac mini 2018/Focusrite Scarlett 2i4/KRK Rokit 6 G3 Studio Monitors
Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course; Lessons 1-48 Completed
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: David B] #2937065 01/22/20 11:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
JoeT Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
Could someone tell me how many layers the binaural CFX sample in the N1X has?

While the stereo CFX grand in my P-515 is very smooth from pianissimo to fortissimo, the binaural CFX is lacking a bit in that department. Even the "headphones" Bösendörfer features three discernible sample layers.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: JoeT] #2937070 01/22/20 11:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,860
CyberGene Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,860
Originally Posted by JoeT
Could someone tell me how many layers the binaural CFX sample in the N1X has?

While the stereo CFX grand in my P-515 is very smooth from pianissimo to fortissimo, the binaural CFX is lacking a bit in that department. Even the "headphones" Bösendörfer features three discernible sample layers.

I don't know if anyone knows that. Dewster used to analyze these things and through a spectral component analyzer he could determine how many layers there are although Yamaha digital pianos even at that time used sample interpolation and he was unable to determine the number of sample layers, so I doubt it will be possible today. I'm surprised that you can hear three separate layers. Take in mind the "headphones" Bosendorfer as you call it is actually the same Bosendrofer as through speakers but with added headphone optimization, it's not separate sample-set. Yamaha currently provide separate binaural sample-set only for the CFX. That being said, I don't find the binaural CFX lacking in timbre variation compared to the non-binaural.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2937074 01/22/20 11:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
JoeT Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by JoeT
Could someone tell me how many layers the binaural CFX sample in the N1X has?

While the stereo CFX grand in my P-515 is very smooth from pianissimo to fortissimo, the binaural CFX is lacking a bit in that department. Even the "headphones" Bösendorfer features three discernible sample layers.

I don't know if anyone knows that. Dewster used to analyze these things and through a spectral component analyzer he could determine how many layers there are although Yamaha digital pianos even at that time used sample interpolation and he was unable to determine the number of sample layers, so I doubt it will be possible today. I'm surprised that you can hear three separate layers.

I always discern sample layers by ear only, no need for spectral analysis. I somehow inadvertently trained this using the Ivory II American Concert D, which features 22 layers of a Steinway D grand. wink

Quote
Take in mind the "headphones" Bosendorfer as you call it is actually the same Bosendrofer as through speakers but with added headphone optimization, it's not separate sample-set. Yamaha currently provide separate binaural sample-set only for the CFX. That being said, I don't find the binaural CFX lacking in timbre variation compared to the non-binaural.


And that's why the "headphones-optimized" Bösendorfer is actually more layered than binaural CFX on the P-515, which seems to have only one single layer. Which wouldn't be surprising as it is the cheapest board which actually has it as far as I know.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: David B] #2937085 01/22/20 12:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,860
CyberGene Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,860
Using only a single velocity layer for the binaural CFX on the P515 would be way too rude. I doubt that's the case. Why bother offering this special binaural option that is supposed to make great headphone experience and then just use a single velocity layer "because it's an entry level" piano. It doesn't make sense at all. But I don't have a P515 and so can't speak about that. I can run the old dewster MIDI files through the N1X though and you can do that with the P515 and we can compare the results.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: JoeT] #2937090 01/22/20 12:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,027
G
Gombessa Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,027
Originally Posted by JoeT

And that's why the "headphones-optimized" Bösendorfer is actually more layered than binaural CFX on the P-515, which seems to have only one single layer.


If true, a single velocity layer would be mindboggling indeed. It would either play extremely poorly, or would suggest that Yamaha has some magical technology that can accurately model timbre through a single sample.

I think it's much more likely that they just have a very smooth blending algorithm between layers, but I've never heard/played a P-515 myself.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2937149 01/22/20 02:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
JoeT Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Using only a single velocity layer for the binaural CFX on the P515 would be way too rude. I doubt that's the case. Why bother offering this special binaural option that is supposed to make great headphone experience and then just use a single velocity layer "because it's an entry level" piano. It doesn't make sense at all.

Well, the whole headphone section is kinda cheap on the P-515 and its sample memory has to end somewhere. It won't have the same amount as an Avant Grand, that's for sure.

Quote
But I don't have a P515 and so can't speak about that. I can run the old dewster MIDI files through the N1X though and you can do that with the P515 and we can compare the results.

That's actually a great idea.

Originally Posted by Gombessa

If true, a single velocity layer would be mindboggling indeed. It would either play extremely poorly, or would suggest that Yamaha has some magical technology that can accurately model timbre through a single sample.

It doesn't change timbre, that's why I'm pretty sure I have a single layer sample at hand.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2937157 01/22/20 02:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
JoeT Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I can run the old dewster MIDI files through the N1X though and you can do that with the P515 and we can compare the results.

Well, the built-in MIDI player of the P-515 evades the binaural samples and always uses the stereo ones, so that's going to be a more time consuming task than just "render to audio".

Edit: Got it, used the built-in MIDI file editor, did a "Voice Change" of track 1 to the "Current Voice", which is the Binaural CFX with headphones connected.

You can do lots of things with a proper dot matrix LCD menu. wink

Last edited by JoeT; 01/22/20 02:46 PM.

Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: JoeT] #2937165 01/22/20 02:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,433
MacMacMac Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 10,433
I think Yamaha quit using single-layer sampling in the early 2000's ... think YDP223.
Pretty much all others use three-layers or more ... save for their "toy" models sold at Wal Mart.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Gombessa
If true, a single velocity layer would be mindboggling indeed. It would either play extremely poorly, or would suggest that Yamaha has some magical technology that can accurately model timbre through a single sample.
It doesn't change timbre, that's why I'm pretty sure I have a single layer sample at hand.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: MacMacMac] #2937175 01/22/20 03:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
JoeT Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,970
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I think Yamaha quit using single-layer sampling in the early 2000's ... think YDP223.

Whatever, those are your theories.

Now that I'm listening to DPBSD file, I'm also pretty sure, that the binaural CFX sample is stretched as well, though it's not too obvious. The stereo CFX is 88 keys sampled for sure.

The WAV files are there:

https://mega.nz/#F!BtIRFYBa!p0tVALq-s7dNkH3m2d-leA

The built-in MIDI editor did cut the 2 second silence at the start when changing the patch to CFX binaural, that's why the binaural rendering is two seconds shorter. I put the modified MIDI file is inside the folder as well. The standard dpbsd_v2.0.mid always plays the stereo sample on the P-515.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: David B] #2937284 01/22/20 06:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,860
CyberGene Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,860
I didn't see you already recorded the DPBSD file which is why I created my own MIDI file to only test the velocity layers. The file plays all the C-notes from C1 to C8 (oddly enough in Cubase AI those are labeled as C0 and C7) and every 5 velocities from 2 to 127:

Code
C1 [velocity:] 2, 7, 12, 17, 22, 27, 32, 37... 127
C2 ...
...
C8 ...


A note is played every 2 seconds and is held for 1.5 seconds. (That's manually entered in Cubase through the key editor to avoid the ActiveSense junk from a live recording, and to have exact velocity and timing)

The MIDI file
CFX binaural, no reverb, normalized to -1dB
CFX, non-binaural, no reverb, normalized to -1dB

I can try the Dewster file too but I'm really very tired and I already eat up the time I usually have for practicing frown

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/22/20 06:48 PM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: Chrispy] #2937969 01/24/20 09:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 23
S
srslysupersonic Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by Chrispy
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Hmm, no, are you using casters on the piano legs?

I have some fairly small sound absorbing casters on the legs, however they only add maybe 2 cm to the height of the piano. I've found that the angle of my foot when playing is quite significant with my heel on the floor. When I play my teachers Steinway, it's much more comfortable.


I had the same issue.The pedals felt right before putting the N1X on casters, though. The casters I bought also add about 2cm but I think that is quite significant. Resting the feet over the pedals became very uncomfortable, so I placed a small box underneath which solved the problem.

The pedals on my teacher's piano feel closer to the floor than the N1X before the casters. They also seem to have less travel so I still can't half pedal on his piano while I am starting to be able to do it on the N1X.
I also got the impression that the pedals on the CFX and C5 I played a while ago were closer to the floor.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: David B] #2937985 01/24/20 10:33 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,027
G
Gombessa Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,027
The acoustics might actually be closer to the floor, assuming the N1X needs some additional height for the retaining screw?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: David B] #2938066 01/24/20 02:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,027
G
Gombessa Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,027
In case it's useful for the pedal discussion, we had a similar thread (including modifications) on the NV-10 thread, with some very useful pictures and measurements by JoBert and Erard (starting here).

JoBert's NV-10 (top/bottom position of the sustain pedal):
[Linked Image]http://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/full/10319.jpg

Erard's Yamaha C3:
[Linked Image]http://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/full/10324.jpg

The acoustic in this case is significantly higher than the NV-10's pedal positions (both at rest and depressed). Maybe someone can measure the N1X and see where it falls?

For the record, my money is still on shoes vs. no-shoes smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2938086 01/24/20 02:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,290
Chrispy Offline
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,290
Originally Posted by Gombessa
For the record, my money is still on shoes vs. no-shoes smile


Actually at my teachers I take off my shoes and am just in socks, whereas at home I wear slippers. I'll try to get a photo with some measurements of my N1X on the casters. I'd be interested if someone would take some where it's not on casters.


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth) and C minor Prelude (big chords), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: David B] #2938094 01/24/20 03:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,027
G
Gombessa Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,027
Darn, I'd have loved a good non-intuitive solution! smile

Looking forward to seeing your pedal measurements.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: David B] #2939456 01/27/20 09:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
H
hlm3 Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
For anyone considering the purchase of an N1X, Yamaha is currently offering a $250 rebate.

https://usa.yamaha.com/promotions/lunar_new_year/2020/index.html

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: David B] #2939533 01/28/20 03:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,290
Chrispy Offline
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,290
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

So 9.5cm up and about 7cm fully down. An 2.5cm/1” higher than the acoustic.

Last edited by Chrispy; 01/28/20 03:38 AM.

Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth) and C minor Prelude (big chords), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On [Re: Chrispy] #2939568 01/28/20 05:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,418
JoBert Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,418
Originally Posted by Chrispy
So 9.5cm up and about 7cm fully down. An 2.5cm/1” higher than the acoustic.

But your's is on additional casters, right? So they are probably responsible for those 2.5cm?

Page 118 of 125 1 2 116 117 118 119 120 124 125

Moderated by  Piano World 

What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our January 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
Free Piano Newsletter
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Free Trial
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Steinway fallboard lettering
by Lushey1 - 02/21/20 04:30 AM
How do you deal with sweaty hands?
by PracticingPianist - 02/21/20 01:34 AM
FP 90 Question...
by GWILLY - 02/21/20 12:27 AM
I am inspired to write some music
by MichaelJK - 02/20/20 10:51 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics197,098
Posts2,928,220
Members96,057
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3