2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
28 registered members (Animisha, Ilviolinista, FonzNL, Calavera, Boboulus, HC110, FrankCox, JackyjdbLipp, 8 invisible), 238 guests, and 372 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Using visual guides to help with chords? #2936890 01/21/20 08:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
R
RiffWraith Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
Hi all smile

I have been playing the guitar for 40 yrs, and have finally started teaching myself the piano. Yes, I know - an in-person teacher is the best way to go, but my main goal here is to become a better composer. So far so good; if at some point I find myself needing a teacher, I will get one.

In the meantime, I find myself using visual guides to get to certain chords. For ex., Cm triad (C Eb G). I find myself "searching" for the Eb; looking for the 2nd of the two black keys in between the two groups of three black keys. Then, I know where to put my middle finger, and the triad then comes easy. The question is whether or not this is ok to do, or could this method be a detriment?

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by RiffWraith; 01/21/20 08:20 PM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: RiffWraith] #2936895 01/21/20 08:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,667
E
earlofmar Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,667
just another average Joe but I don't really think it is necessarily bad. Most people search for the first note rather than the 3rd, or at least I know I do, but what you do now is not set in stone. There will come a day when you don't need to search for any note. How would you tackle a Cm in first or second inversion, would you still start by finding the Eb?


Following Trying to follow the Ling Ling 40 hour method

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


13x[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: RiffWraith] #2936903 01/21/20 09:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 34
terentius Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 34
I find that the best visual guide is the sheet music - the spread of the notes on the staff becomes, with practice, the key to playing the chord without hesitation. You read one note, the bottom one in my case, and see the intervals.

You seem to be doing this in your own way.

Find some studies - Duvernoy, Bartok, Burgmueller - and practice. After a while you’ll be chunking at least the most common chords.


Modesty is a form of pride.
Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: RiffWraith] #2936917 01/21/20 10:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,936
D
dmd Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,936
I would suggest that you need to know the tone names of every key on the keyboard.

For example: Someone says …. D

You can point to a key with the tone name D.

Someone says …. F#

You point to a key with the tone name F#.


You do not figure it out by noting it is the first or second black key from blah blah blah ….

You just know those names.


Then you learn major scales. Just so you can use the scales to form chords from those scales.

Then, when you wish to play a Cm chord …. you just "know" where it is by looking at the keyboard and seeing those scales and knowing where to put your fingers.



You need a teacher ….. or a book ….

Good Luck


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: RiffWraith] #2936918 01/21/20 10:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 55
S
scirocco Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 55
You may want to watch this Youtube video that shows you how to built thirds and fifths quickly and easily on the piano keyboard by knowing a small set of visual shapes that work in any key. I don't play guitar but my understanding is that you guys learn by visual shapes, so this might chime in with your previous experience.

Bear in mind that traditional stream piano teachers do not teach this method and will look at you as if you are from another planet if you mention it.

https://youtu.be/5Y01jIorpeA?list=PLTKhUdPIHIuhhCrMuKJWcjnXUfAN3f5Mn&t=383

Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: RiffWraith] #2936921 01/21/20 10:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,269
N
Nahum Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,269
Chords on the keyboard are studied first by the intervals between the keys, then by the visual form of the distance between the fingers and the angle of the limb of the hand. At this stage, it is worth building chords in the following way: the lowest key + the highest key. The remaining finger or fingers themselves find the keys in the middle; this saves almost half the time.

Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: RiffWraith] #2936928 01/21/20 11:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,641
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,641
I disagree with those saying that you can get everything from sheet music and so on. Awareness of piano keys is an important part of playing the piano. I did not have this. I used to do it somehow by feel and sound; adding this particular awareness added a sudden increase in efficiency.

One can also think of any flatted note as "one to the left", a sharped note as "one to the right" - so you only have 7 notes in an octave to worry about. (Eb = E, moved to the left).

FOR CHORDS: I found "colours" a good way of getting at it. You have - for major chords:

* whites (WWW)
C (CEG),
G (GBD)

* blacks (BBB) - there's only one: F# (F# A# C#) = Gb (Gb Bb Db)

* Oreos (BWB)
Db (Db F Ab)
Eb (Eb G Bb)
Ab (Ab C Eb)

* opposite Oreos (WBW)
D (D F# A)
E (E G# B)
A (A C# E)

If you practise your "colours" a few times each day, adding a few each day, you'll have them. Eventually you can try getting them in inversions.

Minor (triads) = the major triad, move the middle note down, like a light switch. The middle colour will change:
CEG (WWW), C Eb G (WBW)

Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: RiffWraith] #2936939 01/22/20 12:41 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 5,532
dogperson Offline
Silver Subscriber
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 5,532
Keystring
I don’t understand assigning colors as this seems like one more step to learning intervals, as there are multiple ‘colors’ for major thirds and it requires assigning and learning the appropriate color for each key signature. . Seems unnecessarily complicating, similar to ‘All Cows Eat Grass’


Why not just learn the interval for major third, so that One principle applies to every major third no matter the key?
Then inversions are easy: the hands move so the middle note becomes the bottom note.

Last edited by dogperson; 01/22/20 12:44 AM.
Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: RiffWraith] #2936940 01/22/20 12:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
R
RiffWraith Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
Thanks all.

First, there is no sheet music.

Second, I already know the tone names of every key on the keyboard. As well as all the major scales, minor scales, etc.

Thanks for the yt vid; will take a look.

Cheers.

Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: RiffWraith] #2936948 01/22/20 02:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 998
Animisha Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 998
Originally Posted by RiffWraith
The question is whether or not this is ok to do, or could this method be a detriment?

Hi Riff! Welcome to this forum. I think that your method is perfectly fine, and you'll see, three or six months from now, this whole issue has simply evaporated. smile


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Using visual guides to help with chords? [Re: dogperson] #2936965 01/22/20 03:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,641
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,641
Originally Posted by dogperson
Keystring
I don’t understand assigning colors as this seems like one more step to learning intervals, as there are multiple ‘colors’ for major thirds and it requires assigning and learning the appropriate color for each key signature. . Seems unnecessarily complicating, similar to ‘All Cows Eat Grass’


Why not just learn the interval for major third, so that One principle applies to every major third no matter the key?
Then inversions are easy: the hands move so the middle note becomes the bottom note.

There are some misunderstandings here. I wrote nothing about intervals or learning intervals. It was about major chord. It is the very opposite of "All Cows" which is cerebral and divorced from the real thing. The major triads fall into this handful of patterns and within a few days you have all of them.

I'm not sure why you are writing about key signatures. Triads have nothing to do with key signatures.

Yes, I know about intervals of major third and such.I did the more intellectual approach first. This is faster, and even little kids can play all the major and minor triads within a matter of weeks, with very little effort.

There are also some principles of how learning takes place, from concrete to abstract; integration of the senses and more. These are not my ideas but those of an experienced teacher who has tested them out with many students. I tested them out for myself and would not have suggested this otherwise.


Moderated by  BB Player 

What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our January 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
Free Piano Newsletter
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Free Trial
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Flying pianos in russia today
by Maximillyan - 02/23/20 02:25 AM
PCI Express card for VST playback
by Osho - 02/23/20 12:18 AM
Has anyone heard these tunes
by Jonky Ponky - 02/22/20 11:08 PM
Alternative Scale Fingering
by HC110 - 02/22/20 10:16 PM
Grand piano touch too light
by Coda9 - 02/22/20 09:35 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics197,132
Posts2,928,846
Members96,076
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3