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Abdol #2936139 01/20/20 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol


Lack of technology. Yamaha owns Steinberg and all of its digital pianos use the same hardware. For Yamaha to put an audio interface inside its instruments is like putting lego pieces together.

For others, they should build it from scratch.

Look at Kronos for example. The beast comes with the lamest USB audio interface which doesn't even support ASIO.

To wrap it up, the only companies that manufacture their audio interfaces are Roland and Yamaha. The rest don't have such technology at hand.


The technology has been so widely available since major mobile phone makers cancelled the audio jack on phones, think of the iPhone lighting to audio jack adapter that come with any iPhone since iPhone 8, that tiny adapter is a USB audio interface. Nowadays if you want to transfer sound from iPhone or other mobile device without an audio jack to your digital piano directly, then you must own a DP that support USB audio. I think that is major reason that manufactures start to add this technology into recent mid to low end DPs. Yamaha definitely has advantage here, their almost cheapest model E363 is sold below 150$ and has nice USB audio, which has been in the market for over 2 years.

Many older higher end keyboards have this technology too, but those are mainly for the recording purpose. They can only connect to PC/Mac, but not a mobile phone or pad.

Fretnoise #2936191 01/20/20 08:45 AM
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My Roland FP80 has USB audio. I use it all the time. I create recordings, send them to the USB Flash drive and I can play them in my car or transfer them to CDs on my computer. I can then give the CDs to people who like my music.

I love it ,it's easy to use and works great.


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Fretnoise #2936255 01/20/20 11:48 AM
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Roland RD-2000

Audio over USB.... first, I am a hack who likes to record and integrate my keyboard into my computer.

As already noted, the RD-2000 does all... but at around $2500. In short, I think a single USB cable that passes MIDI and audio, back and forth!, is really neat. For example, with just one USB cable, I can record both a MIDI track and an audio track (what my keyboard is sounding like with multi-layers) at the exact same time in my DAW (Ableton). I won't go into why this is good.... but it is for me. Then for playback, you can pass both MIDI and audio back to your keyboard.. at the same time.... and then have your keyboard "play" it back to your speakers. The keyboard must analog out to an amp/speaker (or just play through the onboard speakers if you have them).

I am a bit sketchy on how it actually works..... but it just does work. Now high fidelity... that is another monster in the weeds... but if you want it to just "work", these new capabilities in these boards are just fantastic. The reason I mention high fidelity ... well I send digital out from my computer to an outboard Benchmark DAC, and then mix it in with my keyboard's analog out to then go to my amp/speakers. I found that using a high-quality, outboard DAC sounds way better than using a laptops's $.50 chip or even the keyboards inexpensive DAC... by a long shot. But that is just me.

To sum up MIDI and audio via USB..... it just works and you can pretty much do whatever you want with you laptop computer and DAW, or VST. For those who want to dick with a computer and keyboard, it is essential..... you don't need an audio interface or other piece of gear, just a USB cable and it all works.

And per Roger, you can use the Roland to write a 44.1 WAV file to a USB stick you insert into your keyboard... or you can make the WAV file from your laptop software.... lotsa possibilities with these USB capabilities and modern keyboard tools. The only criticism I have is that there are so many ways to do something now, it can create a bit of a steeper learning curve or confusion to those of us who try to figure it all out first.

Bluetooth - this technology is not high fidelity as the bandwidth is too narrow... the algorithms are "lossy" in that they throw away data to make it all work.. this is very bad for audio quality... but then some don't care too much about this. Nothing beats a wire passing full data at high rates... nothing is lost.

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Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 01/20/20 11:53 AM.

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Fretnoise #2936306 01/20/20 02:43 PM
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There are two separate USB networks being multiplexed over a single wire with this functionality. A USB network is a (multi-tiered) star topology, which means that there is a host that controls the network and devices each with one or more USB endpoints (USB ports) attached. The host is a mini-server that checks for new devices and manages the connections.

When a keyboard is rendering the audio produced by a VST, it is acting as an outboard soundcard just like if you buy an external DAC for your computer. A driver running on the computer presents the soundcard interface to the operating system but the implementation of the sound card is over USB. The keyboard is functioning as a USB host to the computer and the driver encapsulating that communication to the sound card is over USB.

When the keyboard sends midi over USB to the computer, the computer is functioning as a USB host and the keyboard as a device on the USB network. Thus, there are two separate logical USB networks running when a keyboard has this functionality. Both logical networks are being multiplexed over a single USB cable for the convenience of having a single wire, and it also saves the cost of having to have two separate USB ports, one for each network.

To provide this functionality, a keyboard vendor has to include the USB host min-server software in the keyboard firmware and has to process the bi-directional messages to establish which belong to which logical network. This is not a complex undertaking, but it either has to be implemented, or an off-the-shelf component that does it would need to be integrated.

This funcrtionality is particularly useful for integrating a VST running on a phone or table. There are other implementations of the functionality of using the keybaord's DAC to render the VST. For instance, the keyboard could have a digital input using SPDIF to receive digital output of the builtin soundcard. This would allow other digital sources such as some midi modules to be rendered, but would be less convenient for supporting a range of computers, tablets, phones etc.

The Akai Road 88 (which was recalled because of a defect) implemented this functionality in a midi controller, ie it has a builtin DAC and USB host for this purpose even though it does not produce its own internal sound.

David Zhang #2936325 01/20/20 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by David Zhang

The technology has been so widely available since major mobile phone makers cancelled the audio jack on phones, think of the iPhone lighting to audio jack adapter that come with any iPhone since iPhone 8, that tiny adapter is a USB audio interface. Nowadays if you want to transfer sound from iPhone or other mobile device without an audio jack to your digital piano directly, then you must own a DP that support USB audio. I think that is major reason that manufactures start to add this technology into recent mid to low end DPs. Yamaha definitely has advantage here, their almost cheapest model E363 is sold below 150$ and has nice USB audio, which has been in the market for over 2 years.

Many older higher end keyboards have this technology too, but those are mainly for the recording purpose. They can only connect to PC/Mac, but not a mobile phone or pad.


This is not accurate. The audio interfaces have been around way before mobiles going wireless. It has just recently become popular among podcasting etc.

But the technology although available is not integrated in all the DP makers. There is hardware design part: amplifiers, AD/DA converters, efficient drivers and many many aspects. Yamaha and Roland happen to have all of these already at hand. Unlike Korg, Casio or Kawai and many more who need to ask a third-party vendor to manufacture the interfaces for them.

The cellphone has nothing to do with audio interface and the analog output is still there it is not eliminated, it is integrated with the USB or the lightning port.


Manufacturing audio interfaces at a feasible price, quantity, and quality is a serious business. There are many companies that just manufacture audio interfaces and equipment!


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Fretnoise #2936350 01/20/20 03:51 PM
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Audio interfaces include the ability to do analog-to-digital conversion and send the digital to recording software at a host. They also function as a USB-host/DAC/sound card for the computer to render digital content in the computer in analog. Only the 2nd of these functions is needed to support the keyboard rendering VST output. A full audio interface is not needed in the keyboard.

Abdol #2936428 01/20/20 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by David Zhang

The technology has been so widely available since major mobile phone makers cancelled the audio jack on phones, think of the iPhone lighting to audio jack adapter that come with any iPhone since iPhone 8, that tiny adapter is a USB audio interface. Nowadays if you want to transfer sound from iPhone or other mobile device without an audio jack to your digital piano directly, then you must own a DP that support USB audio. I think that is major reason that manufactures start to add this technology into recent mid to low end DPs. Yamaha definitely has advantage here, their almost cheapest model E363 is sold below 150$ and has nice USB audio, which has been in the market for over 2 years.

Many older higher end keyboards have this technology too, but those are mainly for the recording purpose. They can only connect to PC/Mac, but not a mobile phone or pad.


This is not accurate. The audio interfaces have been around way before mobiles going wireless. It has just recently become popular among podcasting etc.

But the technology although available is not integrated in all the DP makers. There is hardware design part: amplifiers, AD/DA converters, efficient drivers and many many aspects. Yamaha and Roland happen to have all of these already at hand. Unlike Korg, Casio or Kawai and many more who need to ask a third-party vendor to manufacture the interfaces for them.

The cellphone has nothing to do with audio interface and the analog output is still there it is not eliminated, it is integrated with the USB or the lightning port.


Agree audio interface is more complected, but the cellphone's USB or light cable adapter is a standalone audio interface , Check it here:
https://www.ifixit.com/News/8448/apple-audio-adapter-teardown
The iPhone adapter includes a DAC ADC and an amplifier, which is an audio interface. It carries digital signal and output analog signal, and the way around. It is so tiny that many people don't believe so.

Originally Posted by Abdol

Manufacturing audio interfaces at a feasible price, quantity, and quality is a serious business. There are many companies that just manufacture audio interfaces and equipment!


Last edited by David Zhang; 01/20/20 07:15 PM.
David Zhang #2936506 01/20/20 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Audio interfaces include the ability to do analog-to-digital conversion and send the digital to recording software at a host. They also function as a USB-host/DAC/sound card for the computer to render digital content in the computer in analog. Only the 2nd of these functions is needed to support the keyboard rendering VST output. A full audio interface is not needed in the keyboard.

Originally Posted by David Zhang
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by David Zhang

The technology has been so widely available since major mobile phone makers cancelled the audio jack on phones, think of the iPhone lighting to audio jack adapter that come with any iPhone since iPhone 8, that tiny adapter is a USB audio interface. Nowadays if you want to transfer sound from iPhone or other mobile device without an audio jack to your digital piano directly, then you must own a DP that support USB audio. I think that is major reason that manufactures start to add this technology into recent mid to low end DPs. Yamaha definitely has advantage here, their almost cheapest model E363 is sold below 150$ and has nice USB audio, which has been in the market for over 2 years.

Many older higher end keyboards have this technology too, but those are mainly for the recording purpose. They can only connect to PC/Mac, but not a mobile phone or pad.


This is not accurate. The audio interfaces have been around way before mobiles going wireless. It has just recently become popular among podcasting etc.

But the technology although available is not integrated in all the DP makers. There is hardware design part: amplifiers, AD/DA converters, efficient drivers and many many aspects. Yamaha and Roland happen to have all of these already at hand. Unlike Korg, Casio or Kawai and many more who need to ask a third-party vendor to manufacture the interfaces for them.

The cellphone has nothing to do with audio interface and the analog output is still there it is not eliminated, it is integrated with the USB or the lightning port.


Agree audio interface is more complected, but the cellphone's USB or light cable adapter is a standalone audio interface , Check it here:
https://www.ifixit.com/News/8448/apple-audio-adapter-teardown
The iPhone adapter includes a DAC ADC and an amplifier, which is an audio interface. It carries digital signal and output analog signal, and the way around. It is so tiny that many people don't believe so.

Originally Posted by Abdol

Manufacturing audio interfaces at a feasible price, quantity, and quality is a serious business. There are many companies that just manufacture audio interfaces and equipment!




Yes, but in order to win the competition one should beat or at least offer equal deals smile Yamaha CP-88, MODX or MONTAGE have the UR series hardware in them! the exact same hardware as UR series exists in Yamaha keyboards. I'm not familiar with Roland, but it also integrates its audio interface hardware in its keyboards.

Stage pianos all have inputs and outputs, at least a 4 outs (2 digital 2 analogs) and 2 in is necessary, some are balanced and some have high bitrates! These do not exist in cellphones nor the simple scenario mentioned will address this. Add to all of these the MIDI in/out through USB and 5PinDin...

A fully capable audio interface is needed in fact! I guess Kawai will ask ONKYO and Korg will ask Yamaha:

https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-Japan-Digital-Audio-Se-200pci/dp/B000KQGM4C

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Abdol; 01/20/20 10:03 PM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Fretnoise #2936516 01/20/20 10:39 PM
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Actually the MP7SE already has the part of an audio interface it does not need to achieve the functionality the OP was asking for. You can feed analog to an input and it can digitize with an on-board ADC. Thus, another keyboard can have its analog out routed to the MP7SE audio in and it can be mixed with the MP7SE output and recorded as digital. So the MP7SE already has an audio interface. It has a DAC chip for its own rendering. The only component it is lacking is the USB hosting service.

Abdol #2936566 01/21/20 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Audio interfaces include the ability to do analog-to-digital conversion and send the digital to recording software at a host. They also function as a USB-host/DAC/sound card for the computer to render digital content in the computer in analog. Only the 2nd of these functions is needed to support the keyboard rendering VST output. A full audio interface is not needed in the keyboard.

Originally Posted by David Zhang
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by David Zhang

The technology has been so widely available since major mobile phone makers cancelled the audio jack on phones, think of the iPhone lighting to audio jack adapter that come with any iPhone since iPhone 8, that tiny adapter is a USB audio interface. Nowadays if you want to transfer sound from iPhone or other mobile device without an audio jack to your digital piano directly, then you must own a DP that support USB audio. I think that is major reason that manufactures start to add this technology into recent mid to low end DPs. Yamaha definitely has advantage here, their almost cheapest model E363 is sold below 150$ and has nice USB audio, which has been in the market for over 2 years.

Many older higher end keyboards have this technology too, but those are mainly for the recording purpose. They can only connect to PC/Mac, but not a mobile phone or pad.


This is not accurate. The audio interfaces have been around way before mobiles going wireless. It has just recently become popular among podcasting etc.

But the technology although available is not integrated in all the DP makers. There is hardware design part: amplifiers, AD/DA converters, efficient drivers and many many aspects. Yamaha and Roland happen to have all of these already at hand. Unlike Korg, Casio or Kawai and many more who need to ask a third-party vendor to manufacture the interfaces for them.

The cellphone has nothing to do with audio interface and the analog output is still there it is not eliminated, it is integrated with the USB or the lightning port.


Agree audio interface is more complected, but the cellphone's USB or light cable adapter is a standalone audio interface , Check it here:
https://www.ifixit.com/News/8448/apple-audio-adapter-teardown
The iPhone adapter includes a DAC ADC and an amplifier, which is an audio interface. It carries digital signal and output analog signal, and the way around. It is so tiny that many people don't believe so.

Originally Posted by Abdol

Manufacturing audio interfaces at a feasible price, quantity, and quality is a serious business. There are many companies that just manufacture audio interfaces and equipment!




Yes, but in order to win the competition one should beat or at least offer equal deals smile Yamaha CP-88, MODX or MONTAGE have the UR series hardware in them! the exact same hardware as UR series exists in Yamaha keyboards. I'm not familiar with Roland, but it also integrates its audio interface hardware in its keyboards.

Stage pianos all have inputs and outputs, at least a 4 outs (2 digital 2 analogs) and 2 in is necessary, some are balanced and some have high bitrates! These do not exist in cellphones nor the simple scenario mentioned will address this. Add to all of these the MIDI in/out through USB and 5PinDin...

A fully capable audio interface is needed in fact! I guess Kawai will ask ONKYO and Korg will ask Yamaha:

https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-Japan-Digital-Audio-Se-200pci/dp/B000KQGM4C

[Linked Image]


I have a Roland JD-Xi, a small synth that has USB audio interface inside. It is good to have, but far from really useful. For example, whenever I turn on or off the keyboard, I have to manually change audio settings in DAW to reflect the change of audio hardware. A external audio interface and mixer works much better.

USB audio for entry level DP is another scenario, another market. It's just for connecting your Phone or iPad to the keyboard's speakers by only one cable. So that you can run those music app with your keyboard. This is a very attractive idea for consumers. Almost all for home use digital pianos are marketing on the ability to connect with Apps, having a USB audio is better than USB+Audio cable, or Bluetooth which has latency.

David Zhang #2936714 01/21/20 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by David Zhang

I have a Roland JD-Xi, a small synth that has USB audio interface inside. It is good to have, but far from really useful. For example, whenever I turn on or off the keyboard, I have to manually change audio settings in DAW to reflect the change of audio hardware. A external audio interface and mixer works much better.

USB audio for entry level DP is another scenario, another market. It's just for connecting your Phone or iPad to the keyboard's speakers by only one cable. So that you can run those music app with your keyboard. This is a very attractive idea for consumers. Almost all for home use digital pianos are marketing on the ability to connect with Apps, having a USB audio is better than USB+Audio cable, or Bluetooth which has latency.


If your digital piano sounds very decent, then it absolutely makes sense to have a fully working audio interface. Also, from the design perspective, Roland and Yamaha will never costume build an audio interface for one keyboard. They will basically use whatever they are putting in their interfaces, in case of Yamaha, I guess Montage or CP-88 have Steinberg UR-44 inside. The same will most likely go to Roland. The existence of inputs is just a gimmick I admit it, but still is very neat if you just want to jam with a friend etc. and it is added almost at no cost.

I really hope to see a USB interface in the upcoming Kawai stage pianos.

Last edited by Abdol; 01/21/20 12:18 PM.

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Fretnoise #2936810 01/21/20 05:09 PM
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The Yamaha P515 *just* makes it under $2000.

Originally Posted by Fretnoise

[...]Especially if your piano has a nice speaker system. [...]


Did you mean on-board speakers? These aren't typically that great across different brands, though I reckon OK enough for home or practice studio situations.


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Fretnoise #2936960 01/22/20 03:05 AM
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The P-515 has a street price of $1499.

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
The P-515 has a street price of $1499.


Ah I see that's USD. I was looking at the CAD price.


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rio197 #2937057 01/22/20 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rio197
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
The P-515 has a street price of $1499.


Ah I see that's USD. I was looking at the CAD price.


2000 but it's BS. There is no way that P-515 is worth 2000 CDN. I assume 1600 or even 1500 is the street price. I found many music stores in Canada are so reluctant in offering good deals.

When I wanted to buy my MP7SE, I asked a store to offer me a better price and they said we can give you the floor model for 50 less. My response was: Give me 1 single reason why I should buy this keyboard from you when I can buy it for this price from anywhere I want!

Later on, I got a great deal from another local store...

Last edited by Abdol; 01/22/20 11:27 AM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
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Originally Posted by Abdol
[...]
2000 but it's BS. There is no way that P-515 is worth 2000 CDN. I assume 1600 or even 1500 is the street price. I found many music stores in Canada are so reluctant in offering good deals.

When I wanted to buy my MP7SE, I asked a store to offer me a better price and they said we can give you the floor model for 50 less. My response was: Give me 1 single reason why I should buy this keyboard from you when I can buy it for this price from anywhere I want![...]


I don't know about "worth", but so far for me price-wise it depends on the city. In mine, two different stores already list the P-515 as 1,999 CDN on their websites. Maybe I can haggle with these guys, I haven't tried smile

As for the MP7SE, you're lucky. On my side of highway 401 the MP7SE is permanently on waiting list. The one store I know in town that does Kawai DPs offered to call if they happen to have any in transit for a look-see but so far no luck for me (I gave my number but didn't commit to the waiting list).


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