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Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Gretel] #2934898 01/16/20 02:59 PM
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OE1FEU Offline
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Originally Posted by Gretel
That video from the felt company was very good btw. I just watched it now.


The video is really cool indeed. BTW, it's the same felt that is in your piano, Bechstein also gets its supply from there, just around the corner from the factory.

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Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: OE1FEU] #2934917 01/16/20 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Gretel
That video from the felt company was very good btw. I just watched it now.


The video is really cool indeed. BTW, it's the same felt that is in your piano, Bechstein also gets its supply from there, just around the corner from the factory.


Excellent video! I’m getting me a piano that uses Wurzen felt.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/16/20 03:39 PM.

Yamaha U1 Silent Piano
Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: MarkL] #2934976 01/16/20 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkL
Originally Posted by Ed Sutton
You can test. Open the top of your piano and suspend the edge of a handkerchief between the hammers and the strings....

Is there any way to do this with a grand? I can imagine fishing a handkerchief between the strings and then holding up the ends to support the weight below the strings. Kind of clunky, is there any better/clever way to do that? I still have a few notes that are too bright, it would help if I could home in on what I want it to sound like for the next time the tuner comes.


Explore the una corda pedal, pressing slowly and listening for softer sounds. Sometimes a tiny movement to just the edge of the string groove will give a notable change of timbre.


Ed Sutton, RPT
Just a piano tuner!
Durham NC USA
Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: MarkL] #2934991 01/16/20 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkL
Originally Posted by Ed Sutton
You can test. Open the top of your piano and suspend the edge of a handkerchief between the hammers and the strings....

Is there any way to do this with a grand? I can imagine fishing a handkerchief between the strings and then holding up the ends to support the weight below the strings. Kind of clunky, is there any better/clever way to do that? I still have a few notes that are too bright, it would help if I could home in on what I want it to sound like for the next time the tuner comes.
If you only have a few notes that are too bright ask the tuner to make them sound like the notes that are OK.

Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Ed Sutton] #2935038 01/16/20 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Sutton

Explore the una corda pedal, pressing slowly and listening for softer sounds. Sometimes a tiny movement to just the edge of the string groove will give a notable change of timbre.


This.

Using the una corda on a grand gives you the right idea of what a particular hammer's characteristics is about. Much better than covering your hammer with a handkerchief.

I also believe that putting a handkerchief between your hammer and the strings isn't really helpful. Covering the strike area of a wool felt with an undefined piece of cotton doesn't help you with an assessment of your hammer to make it sound better according your personal acoustic situation.

Play with the una corda on a grand. Take notes about single keys make you notice that they are out of line and then get a technician to sit down with, point out the keys that you think are out of line and then he will tell you how to proceed and make a smooth integrated sound around its neighbours happen.

Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Ed Sutton] #2935071 01/16/20 10:57 PM
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MarkL Offline
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Originally Posted by Ed Sutton
Originally Posted by MarkL

Is there any way to do this with a grand? I can imagine fishing a handkerchief between the strings and then holding up the ends to support the weight below the strings. Kind of clunky, is there any better/clever way to do that? I still have a few notes that are too bright, it would help if I could home in on what I want it to sound like for the next time the tuner comes.

Explore the una corda pedal, pressing slowly and listening for softer sounds. Sometimes a tiny movement to just the edge of the string groove will give a notable change of timbre.

Thanks, that's a much better approach.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: pianoloverus] #2935075 01/16/20 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by MarkL

I still have a few notes that are too bright, it would help if I could home in on what I want it to sound like for the next time the tuner comes.
If you only have a few notes that are too bright ask the tuner to make them sound like the notes that are OK.

Yes that's a good suggestion. I find that my ear kind of gets saturated when I play the same group of notes over and over, like when the tuner is here making changes, and I lose my ability to decide if I really like how it sounds. The tuner did a nice job voicing about a dozen keys that were too bright a year ago, but he didn't want to do too much at once. So I'd like to fiddle around at my leisure ahead of time and try different things to make sure I can clearly identify what I want done.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Gretel] #2943565 02/06/20 02:05 PM
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Hey guys - short update: I had the tech here for my first tuning. I also asked about for a voicing to make the piano sound softer. He was a bit reluctant, but then agreed to voice the piano like how he thinks it is correct after the tuning as a starting point (he mentioned that my piano was not far away from this state, so he would only make minor adjustments first).
When he was done with this my piano did sound noticeably softer and more polite. It was actually a quite audible change. I was quite happy with it directly after this first iteration and agreed to check out this voicing till the next tuning visit (maybe already in three months or so as the new strings are still settling).

By now I think it could still be softer, but at least I don‘t have this mattress behind my piano anymore. I now tried with a swimming pool noodle (i.e. far less material), and this is probably perfect. With the noodle the piano has a very gentle and elegant and warm tone. Without the noodle it is a bit brighter and alive but still pleasant. I guess I‘ll keep it like that. When I want it brighter I can just remove the noodle. In case I want it even brighter I can open the lid.

It‘s amazing what a bit of foam can do to the sound of an upright. It‘s also amazing what the tech could do in just two hours of work (tuning plus voicing were two hours). It‘s good that I asked for this voicing. Also this voicing is now what the tech regards as appropriate and what he was feeling comfortable with. He used a needling tool with a single needle by the way.


W.Hoffmann T122, Roland FP-50, Roland RD-64
Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Ed Sutton] #2943578 02/06/20 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Sutton
Originally Posted by TimM_980
To technicians:

Could some of the issues might be caused by unmuted duplexes in this case?



The T122 is a vertical piano,

I have seen it written elsewhere that this piano does have duplex stringing but cannot find that in the W.Hoffmann brochure.
Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Gretel] #2943584 02/06/20 02:52 PM
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I could take a pic from the inside if that would help. However I believe it does not have duplex scale. There is felt between the agraffes and the tuning pins. I guess this is the part that should oscillate freely for duplex stringing? The felt was pretty firm and was damping all strings completely as far as I could see.


W.Hoffmann T122, Roland FP-50, Roland RD-64
Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Gretel] #2943595 02/06/20 03:26 PM
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Where do you have this noodle?

Pwg


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Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Gretel] #2943698 02/06/20 08:50 PM
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It is horizontally between the wall and the piano, touching both. It is basically about 20cm below the lid. It both absorbs some of the sound from the back of the piano and dampens partially the oscillations of the back posts.


W.Hoffmann T122, Roland FP-50, Roland RD-64
Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Gretel] #2943781 02/07/20 05:57 AM
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Little correction about the back posts: I think the noodle does not touch the back posts as it is still a bit too high.


W.Hoffmann T122, Roland FP-50, Roland RD-64
Re: Voicing a piano softer: cost/risk/effort? [Re: Gretel] #2943809 02/07/20 07:45 AM
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Cool! An interesting voicing alternative.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
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