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How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? #2934799 01/16/20 12:19 PM
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rintincop Offline OP
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How much latency is found in a typical Kawai digital piano from key to ear vs a real piano?


Professional | 1966 Mason & Hamlin | Kawai ES110 | Mojo 61 |
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Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2934807 01/16/20 12:29 PM
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Not enough to notice, for me. I get a very good connection with my ES8. This is using the internal voices, of course, not a VST on an attached computer. You've got an ES110: what do you think about its latency, if any?

Last edited by ColoRodney; 01/16/20 12:29 PM.

Rodney Sauer
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Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2934808 01/16/20 12:34 PM
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there shouldn't be any noticeable latency in any piano with internal sounds

Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2934810 01/16/20 12:36 PM
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Not noticeable. Actually, the higher end models have a virtual technician parameter that lets you increase the latency, apparently to simulate a similar delay when playing ppp on a large acoustic grand.

Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2934812 01/16/20 12:36 PM
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rintincop Offline OP
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I think the ES110 is fine, I don't notice any latency problem. But I am just wondering how many milliseconds are involved in its internal processing chip. I would guess 3-4ms.

I have tried using Korg Module with Ivory and Scarbee on an iPad and found its latency unacceptable, it uncomfortably lagged and was inconsistent. I would guess it's above 10 ms. I've tried controlling Korg Module via USB with the Casio PX360, the CT-X700, and the Mojo 61... I expect the results would be similar with any controller keyboard since it is the ios processor and the Korg module that are causing the additional the lag time and not the MIDI controller keyboard (currently the ES110 which I have not tried it with).


Professional | 1966 Mason & Hamlin | Kawai ES110 | Mojo 61 |
Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2934828 01/16/20 01:00 PM
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I did a quick estimate of latency of the es100 a few years ago by recording a few key strokes on audacity free software. Then zoomed in to see the timing difference between the sound of my fingernail hitting the key and the sound exiting the internal speakers. It's not a perfect test but good enough for [ ]; it is also repeatable and easy to try at home. The difference was below 5ms.

That was significantly better than any virtual instruments I had (running say at 44.1KHz with a buffer of 64 on a RME interface). I can't remember the results and have the graphs on a different computer (I might have posted graphs and/or results a few years ago here).

Dedicated internal hardware and software can, in theory, run much more efficiently than external VIs run.

Regardless, at these levels, I can't notice latency or differences. YMMV.

Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2934830 01/16/20 01:02 PM
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I have a Kawai CA67 and was using the assess mode in Piano Marvel. In that, software in the app compares in internal time of the sheet music its showing you against the midi input signal from the piano, and marks it green if its on time and red if not (and red if its not the right note). Its obvious that there is some leeway to this as you can be less than perfect and still score a hit.

Now I am in the Piano Marvel beta test program and I was convinced in an earlier release of the iPad app (which is what I was testing), that instead of + or - <delta> on the first note they didn't switch on the detector until exactly the time of the first note, rather than <delta> ms before hand. As a result, I almost had to feel like I was fractionally delaying the first note in order for Piano Marvel to pick it up (this is no longer and issue, so I assume it was fixed).

But what this tells me, is that the latency from my piano and the usb signal along the cable - through a hub and into the Usb C port at the bottom of my iPad Pro through to the detecting software in the Piano Marvel app was so low as to be undetectable.

Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2935123 01/17/20 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rintincop
How much latency is found in a typical Kawai digital piano from key to ear vs a real piano?

Latency is low enough that I focus on playing music rather than on latency.. That's what really matters.

Osho


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Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: newer player] #2935131 01/17/20 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player
Then zoomed in to see the timing difference between the sound of my fingernail hitting the key and the sound exiting the internal speakers. It's not a perfect test but good enough for [ ]; it is also repeatable and easy to try at home. The difference was below 5ms.


A more meaningful measurement would be between the thump of the bottoming out key and the note being sounded. The time between your finger hitting the key and the note being triggered isn't latency.

Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2935134 01/17/20 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rintincop
How much latency is found in a typical Kawai digital piano from key to ear vs a real piano?


On my Kawai CA-58 the latency from key contact to sound is ~20 ms. There was a thread on this here.

There is a paper on grand piano latencies here.


Kawai CA58
Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2935136 01/17/20 04:19 AM
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One should also be aware that acoustic pianos also have latency, if you so will.

The sound is not triggered when your finger touches the key.
The sound is also not triggered when the pressed key reaches the let off point.
The sound is also (usually) not triggered when the pressed key bottoms out.
Instead, the sound is triggered at some point after the pressed key passes the let off point. Depending on if you play ppp or fff (or anything in between), the sound may be triggered before the key bottoms out, or after it bottoms out (or of course if you press the key just right, exactly when it bottoms out).
So even with one and the same key, you have more or less lag, depending on how hard you press it. And as said before, larger pianos have more lag in the ppp case than smaller ones.

Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2935158 01/17/20 05:43 AM
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I think the main response I have to this question is: is there a reason to believe the latency is any different (either better or worse) between Kawai and any other brand of digital piano? I would expect they are all in the same ballpark, meaning all should be perceptibly instantaneous, at least compared to a VST.


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Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: pianogabe] #2935178 01/17/20 07:10 AM
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That piano is defective. Return it to the seller and get your money back.
Originally Posted by pianogabe
On my Kawai CA-58 the latency from key contact to sound is ~20 ms.

Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: MacMacMac] #2935190 01/17/20 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That piano is defective. Return it to the seller and get your money back.
Originally Posted by pianogabe
On my Kawai CA-58 the latency from key contact to sound is ~20 ms.



Can you exclude that not every ca 58 behaves like this?

Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: MacMacMac] #2935219 01/17/20 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That piano is defective. Return it to the seller and get your money back.
Originally Posted by pianogabe
On my Kawai CA-58 the latency from key contact to sound is ~20 ms.



This is irrelevant to the latency of the piano.

Re: How much latency in a Kawai digital piano ? [Re: rintincop] #2935302 01/17/20 11:43 AM
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I think the Kawai is perfectly fine. I am just trying to educate myself in latency. I have had a latency effect issue with every external software piano I have played from any controller. I am going to study those studies posted by link on page 1 of this thread.


Professional | 1966 Mason & Hamlin | Kawai ES110 | Mojo 61 |

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