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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2932888 01/12/20 12:55 PM
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TurboMatt Offline OP
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Would this powder graphite be an ideal lubricant for the area in questions? Or PTFE powder?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hillman-3-g-Powdered-Graphite-Lubricant-703185/100137063


Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2932889 01/12/20 12:56 PM
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Hi Matt,

I was just wondering if you are going to rework all 88 whippen assemblies/repetition lever spring grooves, or just the ones you notice the indention? Just curious.

I'm interested to know if this resolves the noise issue, or improves it, which is apparently the cause of the noise you want to eliminate, at least to some extent.

I just played my Yamaha C7 and I checked the key/action noise when depressing the key, and very slowly releasing it. I do hear that slight bumping noise on all 88 notes, though it may be more pronounced on some notes than others. But, again, it is not at all noticeable when playing normally, at least to me. I'm sure the whippin assemblies have some wear due to the age of the piano.

At some point, I may follow your lead and refurbish the whippen assemblies on my C7, but it is not something that seems to be pressing at the moment. I'm enjoying just playing it for now, and having a ball! smile

Good luck!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: Rickster] #2932895 01/12/20 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickster
Hi Matt,

I was just wondering if you are going to rework all 88 whippen assemblies/repetition lever spring grooves, or just the ones you notice the indention? Just curious.

I'm interested to know if this resolves the noise issue, or improves it, which is apparently the cause of the noise you want to eliminate, at least to some extent.

I just played my Yamaha C7 and I checked the key/action noise when depressing the key, and very slowly releasing it. I do hear that slight bumping noise on all 88 notes, though it may be more pronounced on some notes than others. But, again, it is not at all noticeable when playing normally, at least to me. I'm sure the whippin assemblies have some wear due to the age of the piano.

At some point, I may follow your lead and refurbish the whippen assemblies on my C7, but it is not something that seems to be pressing at the moment. I'm enjoying just playing it for now, and having a ball! smile

Good luck!

Rick


Rick - Unfortunately for me and my personality.....if I find an issue in one piece of a machine, I won't be able to sleep if I skip over some sections. So, it's fair to assume that every single whippen will be coming off for inspection and attention.

The noise you describe is normal to an extent. I base this off of when I recently took a month or so of lessons. Which I stopped because I was unable to practice at home. Anyway, the pianos I was learning on were a recent Yamaha CFX and a Yamaha C6X (or whatever the newer model is). During my lessons, I ended up mostly focusing on how the action felt to take mental notes and less on the actual learning, ha! With that said, I will say that the bump felt from the jack escaping from the knuckle is normal and the slight bump when the jack returns to rest on the spoon is also normal. My piano had a significant clunk heard and felt in the key with the jack returned to the spoon. Definitely not normal!

As another note. I ordered the pin tool from howard piano just in-case I get in a situation where I will end up needing it.


Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2932896 01/12/20 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TurboMatt
Would this powder graphite be an ideal lubricant for the area in questions? Or PTFE powder?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hillman-3-g-Powdered-Graphite-Lubricant-703185/100137063

Matt, I have used that exact product before on door locks. It is not easy to apply, and goes everywhere (even where you do not want it to go) and makes a mess. I honestly think Peter's suggestion to use a basic #2 pencil is the better idea.

The powdered graphite will go everywhere, like dust in the wind, but the sharp pencil would be much more strategic, and stay where you put it... just my opinion.

All the best!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2932958 01/12/20 04:20 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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Agree with Rick. Too messy.

The stuff that was put in there originally is called Emralon (if it's green and glossy). It works well, but like everything else it has a usable lifespan (shorter with heavy use).

I would also agree with Bill that VS PROFELT is good on the whip cushions but I would also bolster them with bushing cloth. I have a fairly detailed description of that process on some other thread here a few months ago. Don't know how to find it though.

Pwg


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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: P W Grey] #2933120 01/12/20 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Agree with Rick. Too messy.

The stuff that was put in there originally is called Emralon (if it's green and glossy). It works well, but like everything else it has a usable lifespan (shorter with heavy use).

I would also agree with Bill that VS PROFELT is good on the whip cushions but I would also bolster them with bushing cloth. I have a fairly detailed description of that process on some other thread here a few months ago. Don't know how to find it though.

Pwg


Is it this post, Peter?

Originally Posted by P W Grey
If you bolster, here's what I do:

1) Thinnest bushing cloth I have (about .033") ripped to a strip about 1/8" - 3/16" wide.

2) Taper one end (as if to rebush a flange).

3) Apply CA to the tapered end to harden it (this will become your "needle")

4) After curing hard, sand or file this end to almost a sharp point.

5) With action upside down, lift a whippen and begin inserting the bushing cloth between the whippen cloth and whatever other cushion was originally installed. This should be an unglued area in the center of the cloth. Make sure you hold the whippen body carefully to resist the side pressure you are applying with the bushing cloth (you DON'T want to damage the pinning). As the tapered end protrudes through the other side grab it with tweezers and pull it all the way through till the end is flush, then cut it with a razor blade and go on to the next.

6) Rinse and repeat 87 times


This can have a significant effect on the action as it gets rid of most (or all) of the dimple created by the capstans and restores proper geometry to that portion. It should reduce friction further. Lasts a long time too (usually).

I am assuming this is either a SS or similar with a properly set up whippen cushion. Some makers glued their cloth all the way and therefore this will not work.

Pwg

Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2933254 01/13/20 10:04 AM
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Thanks Ando,

Yes, that's the one. Makes a significant difference after years of compaction.

Pwg


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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2933300 01/13/20 12:03 PM
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You can take an appropriately shaped piece of metal and burnish the grove after filing to smooth it out.

Yes I'm talking about the jack regulating punching. For Profelt, I usually just fill the indentation. I do not saturate the punching. Let it dry overnight without any pressure on it. There is no wear on it just compressed felt so VS Profelt will go a long way to restoring it.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: P W Grey] #2933646 01/14/20 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Agree with Rick. Too messy.

The stuff that was put in there originally is called Emralon (if it's green and glossy). It works well, but like everything else it has a usable lifespan (shorter with heavy use).

I would also agree with Bill that VS PROFELT is good on the whip cushions but I would also bolster them with bushing cloth. I have a fairly detailed description of that process on some other thread here a few months ago. Don't know how to find it though.

Pwg


I took a look at the cushion on the bottom of the whippen last night. I can honestly say, I can't see much of an improvement to be made there. As well, I don't think your described method will work for my scenario. However, I will take a video tonight to discuss what I think you are describing and illustate the condition of the whippen cushion.

I did use the profelt on two of the jack buttons and it restored them to an almost new looking condition. Very surprising! I will make sure to grab this on video as well.

Now about the worn area on the underside of the repetition lever. I used a very small file to taper the worn areas where the spring spent most of it's life. After that I used 400 grit sand paper, then 800 grit, then 1200 grit and finished it off with 000 steel wool. I think it came out great and will share some video footage in a later post for feedback.

Thanks,
Matt

Last edited by TurboMatt; 01/14/20 10:16 AM.

Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2933669 01/14/20 11:04 AM
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Wanted to get some feedback on this. I have looked into the factory lubricant that Peter mentioned earlier (Emralon). As far as I can tell, Peter is correct in that is what was used on the Yamaha pianos in my pianos era. That product has since evolved and is now marketed and sold as Bonderite L-GP 323 Dry Film Lubricant.

Please take a look at this link and let me know what you guys think. Seems like the right thing to use for the underside of the repetition lever.

https://www.silmid.com/lubricants/dry-film-lubricants/bonderite-l-gp-323-300ml-aerosol/


Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2933949 01/14/20 09:09 PM
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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2933966 01/14/20 10:43 PM
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Great video, Matt, as always! smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2934358 01/15/20 05:44 PM
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Looking good Matt.

The treated wippen cushion looks good. It should work fine.
One point I did not mention before, when you redo the grove make sure the grove is a little wider than the thickness of the spring. You don't want the spring to bind in a too narrow grove.

Just in case you don't know, don't try to reinsert the old pin back into the flange. The pin has to have a tapered end to enter the bushing or it can bush the bushing out of the flange.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: Bill McKaig,RPT] #2934463 01/15/20 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill McKaig,RPT
Looking good Matt.

The treated wippen cushion looks good. It should work fine.
One point I did not mention before, when you redo the grove make sure the grove is a little wider than the thickness of the spring. You don't want the spring to bind in a too narrow grove.

Just in case you don't know, don't try to reinsert the old pin back into the flange. The pin has to have a tapered end to enter the bushing or it can bush the bushing out of the flange.


Thanks for the tip! The pin tool just showed up this afternoon but I don't plan to use it until this coming weekend. I can see on my pins that one end is a "finished" end and the other looks like it was cut. The finished end basically looks like it was machined to be smooth. So, what exactly do I need to do to the pin to re-insert it?


Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2934480 01/16/20 12:06 AM
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Matt, you could take some sandpaper or a fine file and slightly taper one end of your pin.

I agree with Bill about pushing the bushing out of place while repinning. I've done that before on an old upright messing around with a damper lever. Going through the first flange bushing facing you, and into the center bushing is not too difficult. Properly threading the outer bushing on the far side of the flange with the pin is not so easy, because you can't see what you are doing.

Maybe tapering the pin a little and using the repinning tool will help.

Good luck!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2934718 01/16/20 09:59 AM
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The standard procedure is to always use a new pin when repining. The pin has to fit snugly in the birdseye or it can slowly move out of position. Generally a half size bigger. The new pins are longer and have one end pointed. After confirming the fit to the birdseye, the pin is then fitted to the bushings by reaming. Once the proper friction is obtained, the pin is inserted and the excess is cut off. I'm sure there are U-tube videos on this.


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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2934829 01/16/20 01:00 PM
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Welp, got myself in a bit of a bind here. Now what? I don't know how to go about this now. Does it need to be rebushed by a professional?

[Linked Image]

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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2934881 01/16/20 02:14 PM
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Anthony Willey, RPT
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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: AWilley] #2934884 01/16/20 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AWilley


Thanks for the link. I guess I need to figure out what size felt I need to properly repair the bushing.


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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation [Re: TurboMatt] #2934957 01/16/20 05:16 PM
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Note that it isn't felt. It is a woven cloth material, called "bushing cloth". Supply houses sell bushing cloth strips, of the right width and with a pointed end ready to be hardened with glue to push/pull through the hole.

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