Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
36 registered members (CyberGene, barbaram, Colin Miles, Bachopin, Catlady, Carajillo, ChrisGoesPiano, aimar, 5 invisible), 3,242 guests, and 422 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2933902 01/14/20 07:07 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
Those are good thoughts, dogperson, The piece does weave, in and out and between the hands.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2933904 01/14/20 07:11 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
Some pointers from my teacher today

Pay some attention to the phrasing of the triplets - be sure make them sound as sets of three, albeit very subtly.

Be sure to release the pedal in the middle of each of the first two measures (and after each measure) due to the chord changes.

I got into the habit of repeating the C# in M4, when it was held from the prior measure. Now I have to relearn that. Playing M3 and M4 is relativly easy, yet remembering which notes are held is more tricky.

Be sure to crescendo in M5, then tail off and ritardando for the last two 16th notes.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2933907 01/14/20 07:15 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
M13-16

The L hand section for each half measure begins with....
M13 A#... C#...
M14 E... F#...
M15 A#... C#...
M16 A#... C#...

The L hand in M13, 15 and 16 are identical, but an octave apart.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2933908 01/14/20 07:20 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
M34-36
Practice 2 triplets at a time, so they are fluid. Each of the 4 notes move up one note (whole or half step), following the Emaj scale. Make sure the L hand in M35-36 are staccato. Practice the L and R together here from the outset.

Importantly, practice the final triplet of M36 into the first notes of M37, so this is perfectly fluid.

Those are my practice tips for today, as derived from my lesson. My next lesson will be in 3 weeks; I hope to have this section fairly solid by then, for a review with my teacher, and then move on to the B section.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2933937 01/14/20 08:38 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
Another little observation - (please correct me if I'm wrong - this is just my interpretation)

M34-36 has a section of ascending 7th chords, beginning on F#7, until it culminates in A7, B7, then in M37, reaching the Emaj chord, for a nice IV-V-I finish.

Note that the Right Hand in M36 is a repeat of M37-38 (beats 2-3-4-1), an octave up.

The order:
F#m7 - G#m7 - Amaj7 - B7 - C#m7 - D#m7 - Emaj7 - F#m7 - G#m7 - Amaj7 - B7 ---- Emaj


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934333 01/15/20 04:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,536
Stubbie Offline
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,536
Originally Posted by cmb13
Another little observation - (please correct me if I'm wrong - this is just my interpretation)

M34-36 has a section of ascending 7th chords, beginning on F#7, until it culminates in A7, B7, then in M37, reaching the Emaj chord, for a nice IV-V-I finish.

Note that the Right Hand in M36 is a repeat of M37-38 m. 34-35 (beats 2-3-4-1), an octave up.

The order:
F#m7 - G#m7 - Amaj7 - B7 - C#m7 - D#m7 - Emaj7 - F#m7 - G#m7 - Amaj7 - B7 ---- Emaj
See above for measure correction.

For the first beat of m. 36 I had vii9(dim) (D# F# A C# E). Since it's a very orderly progression all around in those measures, ii (F#) makes more sense.




P.S. Anyone know how to put in superscripts?


[Linked Image]
Yamaha C3X
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams

Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: Stubbie] #2934345 01/15/20 05:14 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
Originally Posted by Stubbie
See above for measure correction.

For the first beat of m. 36 I had vii9(dim) (D# F# A C# E). Since it's a very orderly progression all around in those measures, ii (F#) makes more sense.

P.S. Anyone know how to put in superscripts?


Stubbie, thanks for the measure correction.

Regarding the names of the chords, first I should point out that I actually meant to begin on the second beat of M34. In the end, are you agreeing that it (M36) is an F#m7 (ii) rather than D#dim (vii)?

I thought for a while about whether to make the first a F#m7 or an Amaj6 (and the rest to follow in this vain). I was not including the L hand notes as they were not included in each triplet, esp at the beginning of the series. I decided on the method I described above for two reasons:

1. Using 7th all the way up is more straightforward than using 6th, and my thought is the most straightforward explanation is usually the correct one.

2. The final two chords before the resolution to the Emaj were A and B (under the naming I ultimately choose), and I thought that a IV-V-I cadence at the end made a lot of sense.

That said, I don't know if I'm right, or if it even matters.

Thoughts?


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934406 01/15/20 07:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,536
Stubbie Offline
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,536
I'm not sure what you mean by not including the LH notes because they were "not included in each triplet." By my reading, each RH triplet is supported by a note in the LH. (Just to state it for the record, when doing a formal chord analysis, it doesn't matter which clef the notes are in*, which is another way of saying you have to include the notes in both clefs.) Thus the chord in the first beat of m. 36 does work out to a diminished vii9 chord, formally. And the 4th beat in m. 34 is technically F# A C# E G#, which would make it a ii9 chord. In the same manner, the 2nd beat of m. 35 is F# _ C# E G# B (a ii chord with an omitted 3). But I like the orderly progression you put forward. It makes sense that's what Debussy was going after here.

Quote
1. Using 7th all the way up is more straightforward than using 6th...
Are you talking root position vs. the various inversions here? Most of the chords are in the various inversions possible with sevenths.

Doing chord analyses on Impressionist works is possible but not for the fainthearted (imo). (Or someone like me, who is already forgetting what they learned a couple of years ago in their theory courses. frown ) The Impressionists (Debussy and Ravel for the most part) often used church modes and whole (hexatonic) tone and pentatonic scales. They frequently used 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th chords (often omitting various tones (notes) and often not resolving the chords. They used chords of addition and chords of omission. They used traditional cadences, but they used others as well, such as linear melodic lines that converge or diverge to form a cadence point. Sometimes they used 3rd relationship cadences, or cadences with added or omitted tones. Even the idea of a key is sometimes hazy, as the tonic would be omitted.


*Unless the clefs have different key signatures, which is rare. Some of the Bartok Mikrokosmos pieces are written that way and they require a whole lotta mental gymnastics (for me, anyway).


[Linked Image]
Yamaha C3X
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams

Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934410 01/15/20 07:59 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,342
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,342
I am inclined to agree with Stubbie on two points:

1) that a harmonic analysis of impressionistic music may not be particularly helpful except to those who have a thorough background in harmonic analysis; the harmonic vocabulary is sometimes so complex, so far from the "traditional" vocabulary that stopping to analyze may present a stumbling block to performing or, at least, not prove profitable to the average amateur.

2) any harmonic analysis of chord structure has to include all the notes in a chord, not just those in one or another of the clefs.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934437 01/15/20 09:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 12,748
B
bennevis Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 12,748
Same here.

The bass note (lowest note of the chord, whichever hand or instrument is playing it) forms the harmonic backbone of any chord and cannot be disregarded if you're going to analyze a harmonic sequence.

But as Stubbie and BruceD said, attempting to analyze this piece harmonically might be an interesting (if frustrating) exercise if you're so inclined academically, but in terms of helping with the interpretation, the most important is what it sounds like, not how you name each chord. Expressive devices (rubato, agogics, dynamics, accents etc) help to lead the audience's ear towards an interesting harmony or harmonic change, but first you must be able to hear it yourself, and then decide how you're going to bring it out.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934441 01/15/20 09:13 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
Stubbie, and Bruce,

Yes, of course, you are correct, all the notes should be included in an analysis of a chord, regardless of clef or hand. M34, however, did not contain a bass clef note in the 2nd or 4th beats, unless you count the held notes from the previous beats. I suppose I should have? That's what I was mainly referring to.

I was not necessarily expecting these chords to be root position chords. Also, is not anything beyond a 7th an extended chord. Isn't it usually more correct to call the chord a 7th rather than an extended, if it fits with the key? For example, the F#AC#E (M34, beat 2) could be an F#m7 or an Amaj13, but I would think the former more likely or more accurate in this context. I suppose, though, that it doesn't have to be. From there, going up a note with each beat leads to that Amaj7, then Bmaj7, then the Emaj at the end of the phrase.

That said, I think Bruce is likely correct that it is not necessarily productive to even bother with such an analysis in a passage like this one. Nonetheless, it is (at least to me) a useful academic exercise.



I don't want to get too bogged down by this issue; maybe I had it wrong. Regardless, I think getting the passage to a smooth, seamless crescendo-decrescendo flow, culminating smoothly and beautifully in that "magical moment" in M37 that ends the A section, is the most important aspect of these measures.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: bennevis] #2934442 01/15/20 09:16 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
Originally Posted by bennevis
Same here.

The bass note (lowest note of the chord, whichever hand or instrument is playing it) forms the harmonic backbone of any chord and cannot be disregarded if you're going to analyze a harmonic sequence.

But as Stubbie and BruceD said, attempting to analyze this piece harmonically might be an interesting (if frustrating) exercise if you're so inclined academically, but in terms of helping with the interpretation, the most important is what it sounds like, not how you name each chord. Expressive devices (rubato, agogics, dynamics, accents etc) help to lead the audience's ear towards an interesting harmony or harmonic change, but first you must be able to hear it yourself, and then decide how you're going to bring it out.


Cross post.....good points on the sound and phrasing being the ultimate issue.

So the bass note is important, but not necessarily the root of the chord, right? Otherwise, I suppose I could rename the entire sequence based on the roots, and at a quick glance, they seem to work, but it changes it from an ascending pattern to something else. Maybe is more correct....I don't know. But, again, it's an impressionistic piece, so I'm not sure it's even relevant.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934445 01/15/20 09:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,536
Stubbie Offline
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,536
The lowest note can be the harmonic backbone of a chord, by it often isn't the root of the chord. And, yes, the half notes whose tones are held over to the next chord are treated as a note in that chord.

Sometimes with Debussy (the only Impressionist I've played, btw) I'll try to analyze a few chords that sound interesting, but otherwise it's just too difficult and the time is better spent playing.


I haven't done anything with the B section, yet other than look through it.


[Linked Image]
Yamaha C3X
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams

Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934468 01/15/20 11:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 312
MichaelJK Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 312
That passage is harmonically interesting. I don't think I would try to analyze it with chord symbols, though. It's just too complicated to do it that way, and it obscures what Debussy was trying to do.

OK, here's my opinion as to what Debussy was trying to do:
1. Parallel 6ths (or 2nd-inversion triads) leading up to E major.
2. The last note of each triplet is a suspension.
3. This is all happening over a V7 chord outlined in the bass.

Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934472 01/15/20 11:31 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,342
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,342
Technically and musically the measures in question (34, 35, 36) are some of the most challenging measures in this piece, if played properly.

The right hand has two distinctly separate voices and, in my opinion, they must be separate. The top line is - for lack of a better word - the melody line while the accompanying triplets must remain accompaniment throughout. In other words, make sure that the triplets sound uniformly softly with no extra emphasis on the beat when they are sounded with the top line.

One way of practicing the right hand line is to practice it with two hands; the right hand playing the quarter notes and the left hand playing the triplet eighth-notes with distinctly different volumes for each, with the top notes predominating. Then, try to replicate that sound with the right hand alone; it's not as easy as it looks on paper.

Another way of practicing is to practice slowly (not play!) the right hand top notes very legato (holding them for their full value, as much as possible with the fingering that has to be used) and the accompanying triplets slightly staccato. That might help, eventually, getting the balance right. I have found that playing the top line of these measures with slightly flattened fingers helps with the sustain I am aiming for for the top line.

I think that I have spent more time working on the correct voicing on these three measures than on any other entire section of this lovely work.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934481 01/16/20 12:26 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
Wow! A lot to think about, and great suggestions!

Thanks!!!


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934669 01/16/20 08:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,879
Z
zrtf90 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Z
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,879
Just jumping in quickly. I have only looked at the score briefly but as others have said, knowing the chord names won't help much if you're not playing chords. What I prefer to do is consider the notes in an overall sequence that may be grouped in my head with some common thing such as a chord progression.

As MichaelJK notes, this passage is on the dominant, B. I see the whole passage as an extended dominant. Any sign of a diminished fifth or a flattened ninth and I look at rootless dominants so the chords that aren't easily named (the ones without a B in the bass) are just a rootless variant of B11.

Also about naming chords, any notes that are held over still count as they'll still be heard but also, as here, although the B is not sounding on paper all the way through the passage there is no new note that changes the underlying harmony, i.e. another bass note outside of a B7, so the B is still in the head. Does that make sense?

If I make enough progress on my Beethoven for April I'll pick up this piece as well but I'm having logistical issues at present with other things occupying my time.


Richard
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2934760 01/16/20 11:20 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
cmb13 Offline OP
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Silver Level
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,605
Hi Richard, always happy to hear from you and appreciate your input!


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2937019 Yesterday at 09:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 336
D
dumka1 Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 336
I just started working on it, sightread a few times thorough section A and worked on some spots separately this week. I'm already in love with this piece! (And it's not love at first sight--I approached it once before and dropped it, because I was getting tired of playing mainly lyrical pieces). Will take it to my teacher on Friday. The fingering is indeed a bit tricky, I am still figuring it out. I used to add pedaling later in the process, but it seems that with this piece it needs to be there right away. Adding the pedal also helps with fingering. But I'll see what my teacher says. 2 against 3 are OK, but transitioning from triplets to the eighth notes is a little challenging. (I had the same problem with Scarlatti K 466).

Re: Debussy Arabesque I E maj [Re: cmb13] #2937022 Yesterday at 09:18 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 5,301
dogperson Offline
Silver Subscriber
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 5,301
You might find this link interesting— it is Debussy's Thoughts on a wide variety of musical topics
Index on right side

http://djupdal.org/karstein/debussy/method/m10.shtml


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  BB Player 

Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Woo-hoo! I'm average!
by TheophilusCarter - 01/22/20 09:09 PM
Still hate my DP
by Mils - 01/22/20 08:11 PM
Advice Needed: 20Y Baby Grand vs. New Upright
by jywsdd - 01/22/20 07:37 PM
New Kawai GX-2 disappointment
by Katieji - 01/22/20 07:17 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics196,457
Posts2,916,008
Members95,696
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3