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Has the management of favorites changed with the UI update?


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Isn;t the sound much brighter vs previous model based on the video? It seems so to me!

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On paper there seems to be little difference between the CA99 and CA98. But paper says little and hides much. I guess we'll have to wait until these show up in the shops.

I'll applaud the redesign of the capstans. The so-called "slip tape" was a common source of problems and triggered much discussion here.
The "slip wedges" on the Yamahas are designed much better. They don't seem to wear or give way or fall off. But they still require periodic lubrication.

It seems Kawai has replaced capstan with something that looks like a plastic end-cap. It seems incapable of falling off.
And if it's nylon or similar (fingers crossed) it might never need lubrication.

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Is it only me who thinks the resonance modeling is too much like a reverb rather than real sympathetic resonance? I noticed that on the CA78 I tested. For the very first time I thought the reverb was too high and switched it off but it turned out it was damper resonance that sounded just like a reverb. I have forgotten about that, but listening now to the CA99 demos through good headphones and on the slower piano pieces, I notice there's something like too much reverb but at the end of phrases it's cut off which makes me think it's again that resonance modeling. Have you noticed something like that?

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/16/20 09:01 AM.

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Hi

I am a happy owner of a less than one year old CA78.

This forum has brought up an issue with pads falling off backs of keys.

This is the statement (along with trying the GFII - which I loved ) that made me buy one.
"The CA78 digital piano utilises Kawai’s latest Grand Feel II wooden-key keyboard action, which draws upon 90 years of acoustic piano craftsmanship"

I am covered by a 5 yr warranty.

That aside, does this mean, that I am on a sitting time bomb of issues along the way.
If Kawai have a known issue and sold me the piano knowing this, does this allow me to try and update the issue under warranty, with any improvements?

I would be very interested in peoples thoughts.

There will be the camp of people saying 'you paid for todays technology so shouldn't expect upgrading with new' but equally I paid a very
large amount of money based on at least having some confidence I was being sold something with longevity and certainly not with 'known' issues.
A bit like car manufacturer recalls, If the new ends of the GFIII solve the pad issue and are interchangeable with GFII (a big assumption) then it wouldn't be too unrealistic or too high an expectation to get the ends replaced seeing as the piano is only 8-10 months old?

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Originally Posted by Bobetski
Hi

I am a happy owner of a less than one year old CA78.

This forum has brought up an issue with pads falling off backs of keys.

This is the statement (along with trying the GFII - which I loved ) that made me buy one.
"The CA78 digital piano utilises Kawai’s latest Grand Feel II wooden-key keyboard action, which draws upon 90 years of acoustic piano craftsmanship"

I am covered by a 5 yr warranty.

That aside, does this mean, that I am on a sitting time bomb of issues along the way.
If Kawai have a known issue and sold me the piano knowing this, does this allow me to try and update the issue under warranty, with any improvements?

I would be very interested in peoples thoughts.

There will be the camp of people saying 'you paid for todays technology so shouldn't expect upgrading with new' but equally I paid a very
large amount of money based on at least having some confidence I was being sold something with longevity and certainly not with 'known' issues.
A bit like car manufacturer recalls, If the new ends of the GFIII solve the pad issue and are interchangeable with GFII (a big assumption) then it wouldn't be too unrealistic or too high an expectation to get the ends replaced seeing as the piano is only 8-10 months old?






That would depend on where you live as far as legal rights are concerned. In the EU consumer products have to meet certain standards and are expected to last a reasonable period without defects. A digital piano (or fridge, washing machine et cetera), to my knowledge, cannot be reasonably demanded to last flawlessly for more than five years (IIRC it is a 'mere' two years). The warranty would be considered quite generous.

A known issue in this context would be an issue that prevents the device from surviving the reasonable period,which doesn't seem the issue here given the warranty. As a consequence the mere fact that a new product might be even more durable would not entitle someone with an earlier version an upgrade.

You could discuss this with your store though. One store near me offers the ability to upgrade your purchase to a more expensive piano within a year of purchase as long as you pay the difference and the difference exceeds at least one Euro. In this case you would be allowed to swap the CA78 for a new CA79 for a very small sum. This is of course a service, not a right, but you can see what your store can do for you!

Last edited by sleutelbos; 01/16/20 09:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by mwf
Would get one if it came apart into 2 main pieces in case you wanted to build it yourself or disassembled for any other reason... You're forced to have it in one large 80kg chunk! Because of that soundboard I'm guessing. What good is this if you buy online? They won't build it for you and deliver it in one piece many of them...

I don’t understand what you mean with the last part? Of course you can order it online. And of course they won’t build it for you (if by „they“ you mean the seller). That’s because Kawai already built it in one piece in their factory. So of course the online shop will simply ship this big box from Kawai on to you, with the already assembled piano inside. That’s nothing, compared to shipping acoustic pianos.


Who's going to unload the 80kg+ box and bring it in to my house, it needs piano delivery men, professionals with insurance etc.. Can standard delivery men do it? Doubt it. You can't sell it or return it either if not happy once it's stuck in your house...

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Originally Posted by mwf
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by mwf
Would get one if it came apart into 2 main pieces in case you wanted to build it yourself or disassembled for any other reason... You're forced to have it in one large 80kg chunk! Because of that soundboard I'm guessing. What good is this if you buy online? They won't build it for you and deliver it in one piece many of them...

I don’t understand what you mean with the last part? Of course you can order it online. And of course they won’t build it for you (if by „they“ you mean the seller). That’s because Kawai already built it in one piece in their factory. So of course the online shop will simply ship this big box from Kawai on to you, with the already assembled piano inside. That’s nothing, compared to shipping acoustic pianos.


Who's going to unload the 80kg+ box and bring it in to my house, it needs piano delivery men, professionals with insurance etc.. Can standard delivery men do it? Doubt it. You can't sell it or return it either if not happy once it's stuck in your house...


I know someone who bought an actual acoustic piano at Thomann and had it shipped to Poland. Wasn't satisfied and had them come pick it up again. Megastores like that know how to get such stuff to your house no problem.

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I had a NU1X bought from Thomann that I returned. It's an entire piano with no assembly needed. It comes on top of a wooden pallet, covered with a bit of cardboard and secured to the pallet through plastic bands. I had to hire movers between the building entrance and my apartment and to help with unpacking and then packing it again but other than that the Thomann shippers got everything else from there on.

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/16/20 10:19 AM.

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Originally Posted by mwf
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by mwf
Would get one if it came apart into 2 main pieces in case you wanted to build it yourself or disassembled for any other reason... You're forced to have it in one large 80kg chunk! Because of that soundboard I'm guessing. What good is this if you buy online? They won't build it for you and deliver it in one piece many of them...

I don’t understand what you mean with the last part? Of course you can order it online. And of course they won’t build it for you (if by „they“ you mean the seller). That’s because Kawai already built it in one piece in their factory. So of course the online shop will simply ship this big box from Kawai on to you, with the already assembled piano inside. That’s nothing, compared to shipping acoustic pianos.


Who's going to unload the 80kg+ box and bring it in to my house, it needs piano delivery men, professionals with insurance etc..

Yes, that's what happens when you buy a piano. You'll likely need help to move it around. The online seller won't send it to you with DHL, but likely with a specialized shipping firm. It has always been like this for acoustic pianos. It's not a surprise that it is the same for digital pianos that use certain hardware features of acoustics (like a soundboard, or a real acoustic action) and therefore start to approach acoustics in bulk and weight (although they are still a good way off in that regard).

Originally Posted by mwf
You can't sell it or return it either if not happy once it's stuck in your house...

Of course you can sell it. I sold my CA97. The buyer contracted piano movers to get it from my place.
And of course you can return it if there is a problem. CyberGene did so with his NU1X (which comes as a single unit too, iirc, and weights 111kg). (EDIT: I see that CyberGene confirmed this in a post while I was writing mine.)
Contrary to what you seem to believe, lots of people have handled this without problems.

Last edited by JoBert; 01/16/20 10:21 AM.

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I don't think I like the new design of CA79 (I don't even consider CA99 since I categorically do not accept any upright design, which for me will always have some objective disadvantages). Mainly due to the "fallboard" area behind the keys. I wrote about this several times before.

CA78:
[Linked Image]

CA79:
[Linked Image]

In CA79 the "fallboard" area behind the keys no longer looks so monolithic and acoustic-like as on CA78, CA67 etc. This design advantage has been present in Kawai cabinet pianos for many years, in models of different generations. And in new model, for me personally, one of these advantages has been lost.

Regarding the new Grand Feel III action.
Glad they fixed the "slip-tape" problem of GF1/2 actions. It was the biggest objective issue of those actions. And this is exactly what I wrote about here.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'll applaud the redesign of the capstans. The so-called "slip tape" was a common source of problems and triggered much discussion here. […] It seems Kawai has replaced capstan with something that looks like a plastic end-cap. It seems incapable of falling off.

Exactly. Reliability is №1 matter.

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I wonder if a Fazioli thread would get this much attention. The beginning of the end? grin

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Originally Posted by Pete14
I wonder if a Fazioli thread would get this much attention. The beginning of the end? grin


If it costs €3000? Sure! :P

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is it only me who thinks the resonance modeling is too much like a reverb rather than real sympathetic resonance? I noticed that on the CA78 I tested. For the very first time I thought the reverb was too high and switched it off but it turned out it was damper resonance that sounded just like a reverb. I have forgotten about that, but listening now to the CA99 demos through good headphones and on the slower piano pieces, I notice there's something like too much reverb but at the end of phrases it's cut off which makes me think it's again that resonance modeling. Have you noticed something like that?
IMHO, all digital pianos use a type of reverb to emulate damper resonances. I think it's just a convolution reverb with an impulse response sampled from the vibration of all the strings inside an acoustic piano. To "simulate", instead of "emulate" the effect, you should make all the virtual strings resonate (with certain parameters different from a normal note playing) every time you play a single note with the sustain pedal depressed. That would require a computational power that I don't think our current DPs have, because it would be like playing 88 notes each time you play a single note.
I think even Pianoteq uses convolution reverb to simulate most of the resonances. Probably, the only resonance that doesn't use convolution is the sympathetic resonance, because it's implemented by playing another note (you notice it, because for each sympathetic note played, the polyphony counter decreases). If damper resonance implementation worked like the sympathetic resonance implementation, you should see the polyphony counter decrease of 88 for each single note played with sustain pedal depressed... The max polyphony would be reached after playing a single chord!

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A few things I noticed skimming the CA99 manual...
  • It looks like transpose/tuning can be edited with SK-EX Rendering, something not possible previously.
  • More touch curves have been added - four lights and four heavies (as opposed to two each). I found the older UI didn't have enough gradations.
  • I didn't see anything about global setting persistence or editing favorites (pain points in the previous UI).


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There seems to be relatively little new in the CA99 ... so I think it might soon be a good time to make a lowball offer on a CA98 while they last.

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The announcement mentions
“The latest Concert Artist instruments adopt a new communication system, allowing all functions of the piano to also be controlled via a dedicated app for iOS and Android, with settings and adjustments recalled automatically every time the instrument is powered on.”
Looks like settings are saved automatically.

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I thought I had written a comment here, but no. I don't know why
Kawaii don't launch these pianos on a grandpiano format, like Roland.


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Also wonder if a UI update would be available on the CA 78 / 98 ?
I mean it would be really possible but I guess the new UI is also one of the selling points of the new 79 and 99.

I also don't understand why you see the screws on the left holding the key cover on the CA 99. For this price tag, which will be similar to the 99 those screws should not be visible :-O

I got a CA 98 just 2 weeks ago, however I kinda new that NAMM is showing up and my dealer really wanted to clear the remaining two 98s he had and apparently not everybody is in the market for it (Kawai prices are much more expensive in the U.S. than in Europe e.g. Germany). So we negotiated a pretty sweet deal (I believe based on all the prices I have seen for the CA 98 at least here in the U.S.)

Just thought it would be cool that the UI could be updated, I mean I am sure it's possible if Kawai wanted to...


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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There seems to be relatively little new in the CA99 ... so I think it might soon be a good time to make a lowball offer on a CA98 while they last.


correct! smile


Previously: VPC-1 / CA-58 / CA-98 / CA-79
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