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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933405 01/13/20 04:48 PM
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Brand new pianos often do not sound thier best at first. Was your piano a floor model
or new from a warehouse ? Before my present piano I had a VERY new U1. All I.can say
is that it developed a metalic bright sound ? Some of the technicians apart from the well
qualified ones were hopeless even with tuning ,apart from voicing.
After we upgraded (a few months later ) The Head Technician (RPT) took far greater interest
In my piano. In a few days I am having an independent technician service my piano., tune do ,
touch up.,regulations and voicings .He a concert technician very well known in Vancouver. I am glad I have taken this step .I tried a W Hoffman 48" and it was a beautiful sounding piano !
Ask for the Head Technician to voice your piano !

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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933410 01/13/20 05:00 PM
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I have no real knowledge, except last week I went to visit Venables and Sons (see my thread on auditioning Baby Grands). When I arrived Will Venables - he's the son, but seems to be the only person there put me on an old piano while he voiced a new one that had just arrived, after about 15 minutes I didn't much like the old piano and went to join him in the room where he was voicing a new one. It probably took another 10 minutes whilst I played on a very small baby grand next to it. I then got to play it and he dynamically altered the voicing as I discussed what I liked and didn't like, and where I was finding issues. The action came in and out of the piano about 10 times in this process. By the end the tone was gorgeous. From the moment I walked in the door to the moment I left again was exactly two hours. That included discussions on logistics if I did want to purchase, a brief discussion about recording pianos and quite a bit of playing on the piano by me when he was taking phone calls and doing other stuff.

Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Hakki] #2933439 01/13/20 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
This from T122 Bechstein.com site:

All the production steps involved in making this piano, including the manual voicing of the hammerheads, are performed in the Czech Republic by the C. Bechstein Europe piano-makers. The five-year warranty also comes from C. Bechstein Europe, a production site unique in Europe as it offers optimal prerequisites for high-quality piano-making.

Again, if it were me, I wouldn't let my new piano voiced.
But that is up to you to decide.

Edit: That is because I paid already for this cost of manual voicing at the factory.

I guess you mean change the voicing like Gretel seems to want to ?

Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Hakki] #2933444 01/13/20 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Again, if it were me, I wouldn't let my new piano voiced.But that is up to you to decide.

Edit: That is because I paid already for this cost of manual voicing at the factory.
l know for a fact that NYC Bechstein dealer voices the Bechstein grands when they arrive at their factory/dealership. As far as I know this is not an unusual occurrence at dealers. In fact, they may spend more time voicing their expensive pianos because the profit is greater than on a less expensive one and potential buyers may be more fussy.

So the idea that a piano's voicing at the factory should be or is the final voicing is simply not true. Some dealers will also agree to voice the piano in the owner's home at no additional expense, especially if it's an expensive one.

Would you really rather play on a piano whose tone you didn't like at your home because it was already voiced at the factory? Not every piano sounds the same in the buyer's home as at the dealer.


Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/13/20 06:25 PM.
Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933446 01/13/20 06:37 PM
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IMO, after having played on a digital previously, OP is simply finding the acustic piano loud and hoping that voicing might silence down the piano. I don't think it has anything to do with the tone of the piano.

Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933450 01/13/20 06:45 PM
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Okay, you think I am an idiot.


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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933457 01/13/20 06:54 PM
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Pianos often come minimally voiced, with final voicing to be done when the piano is in the final position. Most people do not bother to change it.


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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Hakki] #2933491 01/13/20 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
IMO, after having played on a digital previously, OP is simply finding the acustic piano loud and hoping that voicing might silence down the piano. I don't think it has anything to do with the tone of the piano.


Your ideas and assumptions in this thread are a bit much. New pianos are settling in, getting played in (beyond what happens at the factory). Minor voicing and regulation issues are common; I've experienced this on mid range and high end new pianos. They can be frustrating if not expected, but the notion that this is unusual or that "quality" craftsmanship entirely eliminates these changes seems wrong. If the tech is good, and it won't hurt to get a second opinion, voicing isn't risky and won't void warranty (ha!). Techs don't go from 10 all the way down to 1 in my experience. They can do a few notes / section and see what you think, and probably mostly reverse unwanted results.

Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933560 01/14/20 02:58 AM
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One needs to be on good terms with the head technician
of a dealer, in case there is ever is a warranty problem .It would
be safer to for him judge what should or can be done .
New pianos sometimes have issues to be dealt with.Pedal
adjustments etc .

Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933561 01/14/20 03:20 AM
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Voicing done right is a time consuming process that requires a really experienced technician. It is also a necessary process to adapt a piano's capability to its final location in the customer's home. Before you start needling extensively, however, one should take a closer look at some of the acoustic elements hat influence the sound character and volume of the instrument, so it makes sense to play around with thick rugs or the piano's position in the room.

I am confident that a good technician will substantially improve on the piano's sound quality in its final position. If your seller is an official Bechstein piano reseller, one can expect a competent service and I would assume that voicing it in a customer's home will be done by someone with the necessary experience. Does this piano store have other Bechstein instruments from the concert series, i.e. a B 212 or C 234 in the showroom? If so, you can assume that their technician will have spent some time voicing it, even if it's already pretty good when new from the factory.

Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933573 01/14/20 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Gretel
Hi all,

I am considering to ask my piano tech to voice my piano a bit softer, but I am unsure what this would entail. How much effort is this? And: can this only be done a limited number of times (before e.g. new hammers or felts are necessary)? Is this a risky operation? I don‘t know the tech yet but the store where I bought the piano is pretty big and they do a lot of tunings (and I suppose voicings, but I am not sure).

Many thanks in advance,
Gretel

Hi Gretel,
I voice my own Blüthner but have done so only after taking three years learning to tune and regulate pianos. It would be helpful to know what you thought of the tone of the same piano presuming that you played it at the dealer? I like the soft tone of my Blüthner and there were only a few hammers that required voicing.
Questions like yours are sometimes better answered in the Technician and Tuner section.
Ian

Last edited by Beemer; 01/14/20 04:47 AM.

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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: OE1FEU] #2933613 01/14/20 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
I am confident that a good technician will substantially improve on the piano's sound quality in its final position. If your seller is an official Bechstein piano reseller, one can expect a competent service and I would assume that voicing it in a customer's home will be done by someone with the necessary experience. Does this piano store have other Bechstein instruments from the concert series, i.e. a B 212 or C 234 in the showroom? If so, you can assume that their technician will have spent some time voicing it, even if it's already pretty good when new from the factory.
If the dealer is a major Bechstein dealer they probably have some good voicers available. But I wouldn't assume they will necessarily send their best voicer to voice a piano on the low end of what they sell in the store. So I think the OP should definitely inquire about who they will send and what his qualifications are.

Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Lady Bird] #2933620 01/14/20 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
One needs to be on good terms with the head technician of a dealer, in case there is ever is a warranty problem .It would be safer to for him judge what should or can be done .New pianos sometimes have issues to be dealt with.Pedal adjustments etc.
A reasonable dealer or head technician is not going to hold it against a customer who has been using an outside but excellent tech if there is a warranty problem at one point. I think the one possible advantage of using the dealer's tech is that they may be more familiar with voicing the particular make/model piano in question. OTOH very good techs can usually work successfully on any piano and using them may have other advantages.

Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933678 01/14/20 11:23 AM
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Gretel- how long has your piano been in your home? How long was it on the dealer’s floor? Did you notice the brightness when you tried out the piano? Pianos need extra tunings the first year and can be expected to have some changes as they settle into your home. Plus, now you’re playing every day so you’ll notice new minor changes, to speak with your tech about at your scheduled appointment.

I’m assuming you just want some slight adjustments and not the whole voice of the piano altered. If it’s the latter, then you need to do what Hakki suggested and return it and get another.


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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: j&j] #2933688 01/14/20 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by j&j
I’m assuming you just want some slight adjustments and not the whole voice of the piano altered. If it’s the latter, then you need to do what Hakki suggested and return it and get another.
The dealer might agree to switching to another piano but very well might not agree. They are certainly under no obligation to do so unless there was some return policy in the contract. If they agree, the OP would probably have to pay for the two piano moves. Depending on how long the OP has had the piano, the dealer might not even be able to sell the piano as a new piano any longer.

Since no on here except the OP knows what the piano sounds like or what the OP desires in terms of tone, I don't think it's possible to know how much voicing would be needed to change the tone enough to suit the OP's taste.

Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: pianoloverus] #2933700 01/14/20 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by j&j
I’m assuming you just want some slight adjustments and not the whole voice of the piano altered. If it’s the latter, then you need to do what Hakki suggested and return it and get another.
The dealer might agree to switching to another piano but very well might not agree. They are certainly under no obligation to do so unless there was some return policy in the contract. If they agree, the OP would probably have to pay for the two piano moves. Depending on how long the OP has had the piano, the dealer might not even be able to sell the piano as a new piano any longer.

Since no on here except the OP knows what the piano sounds like or what the OP desires in terms of tone, I don't think it's possible to know how much voicing would be needed to change the tone enough to suit the OP's taste.


Yeah, that last option would definitely be a last resort, and probably the most expensive. That’s why I asked all the questions. The OP still loves the piano overall so maybe it’s just new home new environment adjustments are needed.


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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: OE1FEU] #2933740 01/14/20 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Voicing done right is a time consuming process that requires a really experienced technician. It is also a necessary process to adapt a piano's capability to its final location in the customer's home. Before you start needling extensively, however, one should take a closer look at some of the acoustic elements hat influence the sound character and volume of the instrument, so it makes sense to play around with thick rugs or the piano's position in the room.


I agree entirely.

Voicing a piano to the owner's satisfaction in their unique acoustic environment at home is the final process necessary to marry that piano to that space. I see nothing wrong in principle with the idea of a voicing in the owner's home. If done with skill and sensitivity it is not going to cause any detrimental effects in the piano.

I also agree it is worth considering the other elements in the room that might affect the piano's tone (or a person's perception of that tone). If it's bright consider whether it is feasible and aesthetically attractive to add soft furnishings of some sort; rugs, upholstered seating, cushions, wall tapestries, thicker curtains etc. Even changing wall coverings from emulsion paint to textured wallpaper, hessian or cork can change the acoustic properties of a room and will have a tendency to reduce the brightness of the acoustic feedback from the room.


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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: Gretel] #2933746 01/14/20 01:57 PM
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So, when should a new piano be voiced in its new home? Should that be done in the first year? How soon?


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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: EssBrace] #2933752 01/14/20 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Voicing done right is a time consuming process that requires a really experienced technician. It is also a necessary process to adapt a piano's capability to its final location in the customer's home. Before you start needling extensively, however, one should take a closer look at some of the acoustic elements hat influence the sound character and volume of the instrument, so it makes sense to play around with thick rugs or the piano's position in the room.


I agree entirely.

Voicing a piano to the owner's satisfaction in their unique acoustic environment at home is the final process necessary to marry that piano to that space. I see nothing wrong in principle with the idea of a voicing in the owner's home. If done with skill and sensitivity it is not going to cause any detrimental effects in the piano.

I also agree it is worth considering the other elements in the room that might affect the piano's tone (or a person's perception of that tone). If it's bright consider whether it is feasible and aesthetically attractive to add soft furnishings of some sort; rugs, upholstered seating, cushions, wall tapestries, thicker curtains etc. Even changing wall coverings from emulsion paint to textured wallpaper, hessian or cork can change the acoustic properties of a room and will have a tendency to reduce the brightness of the acoustic feedback from the room.


I’ve read in some previous posts that you can use big pillows or stuffed animals, say, placed underneath the grand to see if a thick rug would help or not. Voice down the room before voicing down the piano. Certainly worth a shot, IMHO.


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Re: Voicing - how much effort? [Re: j&j] #2933766 01/14/20 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by j&j
I’m assuming you just want some slight adjustments and not the whole voice of the piano altered. If it’s the latter, then you need to do what Hakki suggested and return it and get another.
The dealer might agree to switching to another piano but very well might not agree. They are certainly under no obligation to do so unless there was some return policy in the contract. If they agree, the OP would probably have to pay for the two piano moves. Depending on how long the OP has had the piano, the dealer might not even be able to sell the piano as a new piano any longer.

Since no on here except the OP knows what the piano sounds like or what the OP desires in terms of tone, I don't think it's possible to know how much voicing would be needed to change the tone enough to suit the OP's taste.
Yeah, that last option would definitely be a last resort, and probably the most expensive.
My point was it might very well not even be possible. Dealers don't have to and I think rarely agree to have a piano returned just because the buyer doesn't like it unless the contract has a clause about that.

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