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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Peter K. Mose #2933059 01/12/20 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter K. Mose
All very helpful discussion, Piano*Dad. Much to chew on. Many thanks!

*****

Stanford publishes its current tuition. And then discounts it often for worthy students, or even dispenses with it altogether in some cases. But these NY and London piano teachers I mentioned are doing something quite different, and doing it proudly. They are actually adding a major *surcharge* to their tuition rates, for allegedly wealthy families. Maybe they suddenly double their prices in such cases. Maybe they add a zero. No one knows the size of the surcharge, since they don't publish their rates to begin with. It's just all a crap shoot what fee a potential student will be quoted, based perhaps on the cut of one's clothes, or when one will next ski in Switzerland, or how many times they have heard Elton John play in London. "Everything is negotiable" is their slogan, and they call this a sliding scale. It has nothing to do with piano playing, or musicality, or perceived student potential.

It's just a soak-the-rich game.



Are rich people such poor negotiators that they can’t negotiate a better hourly rate? You make these rich people out to be helpless and at the mercy of teachers. Anyway, the rich are probably soaking other people, so it’s hard to feel too sorry for them. I know expensive tutors in NYC who charge a lot of money for their tutoring services. I assume they have the results to back up their fees.

I guess I got a good rate because my clothes are off the rack, I’ve never seen Elton John in London, or anywhere else, and I’ve never even been to Switzerland. smile Yippee for me.

In Calvin Trillin’s novel, Tepper Isn’t Going Out, the main character hears a stock broker berating a fruit seller on the street, yelling at him and asking him how he can charge so much for a single banana, and the fruits seller says: “Free market economy free market economy free market economy free market economy. “

Last edited by LarryK; 01/12/20 09:20 PM.

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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Peter K. Mose #2933062 01/12/20 09:31 PM
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Larry

if you called to check on prices for pisno lessons, would you assume that it is a negotiable rate? I would assume it is non-negotiable and would not consider saying ‘I’ll pay you xxx amount’.


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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Peter K. Mose #2933065 01/12/20 09:36 PM
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You could also offer discounts for students who are charming and levy a surcharge for difficult parents.


Maybe I'm going out on a limb, but I can't imagine my teacher spending even one minute calculating his fee based on my tax returns, the number of times I have seen Elton John (1 in Salt Lake City, not London), my trips to Switzerland (to visit family but not skiing), and my wardrobe of jeans and sweaters. It doesn't matter though, because I'd probably just pay him whatever he asked anyway, until I couldn't afford him anymore.


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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
dogperson #2933069 01/12/20 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Larry

if you called to check on prices for pisno lessons, would you assume that it is a negotiable rate? I would assume it is non-negotiable and would not consider saying ‘I’ll pay you xxx amount’.



Yes, I would assume the rate is negotiable, especially if it was way out of line, and I know of some teachers in the city whose stature has pushed their rates to much higher levels than the norm. At some point, a teacher will have no students if he or she pushes rates up too high. It’s better to have a student who shows up consistently, week after week, and pays a lower rate, than a higher paying student who gives up in a few months.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/12/20 09:58 PM.

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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
LarryK #2933072 01/12/20 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by dogperson
Larry

if you called to check on prices for pisno lessons, would you assume that it is a negotiable rate? I would assume it is non-negotiable and would not consider saying ‘I’ll pay you xxx amount’.



Yes, I would assume the rate is negotiable, especially if it was way out of line, and I know of some teachers in the city whose stature has pushed their rates to much higher levels than the norm. At some point, a teacher will have no students if he or she pushes rates up too high. It’s better to have a student who shows up consistently, week after week, and pays a lower rate, than a higher paying student who gives up in a few months.


That has not been my experience with expensive teachers: they charge a premium, non-negotiable, and are not lacking for students. I will admit that I have a limited depth in that price realm so this statement may not be universally true.... it is just my personal experience. If you try to negotiate a rate, I hope you post the outcome.

Last edited by dogperson; 01/12/20 10:15 PM. Reason: Typo
Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Peter K. Mose #2933077 01/12/20 10:35 PM
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I am familiar with two systems.

In france, public conservatoires have differential prices based on income.
There are 10 different level and the corresponding fees varies roughly between 100 and 1200 Euros per year for a full tuition for kids and young adult.

The price level are decided on the income for all public related activities ( for example school canteen).

You are allowed to refuse to share your income and you are put in the top category.

Still it is silly as this are public school and your level is not public.

Admission around six is by random sorting as there, at least in Paris, not enough places for everyone.

Later you are admitted by audition.

There are exams, every 2/3 years. You are allowed to fail ones then you are out.

Later on you can decide if you want a professional or amateur level with relative implications.

In Switzerland, the price is fixed but much lower that what you would pay privately.

There are regular exams every 2/3 years and you are out if you fail.

Plus if the teacher believe you are not working. He can kick you out because you are stealing a place to someone else.

Entrance is always on test at any level.

For young kids with zero background, it is about music attitude plus an interview to the parents.
At the end of the first year there is a first test to see if the kid works. You fail you are out.

Maybe they are not applicable to a single teacher students but they look like fair systems to me.

On my personal believe, the French one is very fair.

Last edited by fofig; 01/12/20 10:37 PM.


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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
dogperson #2933079 01/12/20 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by dogperson
Larry

if you called to check on prices for pisno lessons, would you assume that it is a negotiable rate? I would assume it is non-negotiable and would not consider saying ‘I’ll pay you xxx amount’.



Yes, I would assume the rate is negotiable, especially if it was way out of line, and I know of some teachers in the city whose stature has pushed their rates to much higher levels than the norm. At some point, a teacher will have no students if he or she pushes rates up too high. It’s better to have a student who shows up consistently, week after week, and pays a lower rate, than a higher paying student who gives up in a few months.


That has not been my experience with expensive teachers: they charge a premium, non-negotiable, and are not lacking for students. I will admit that I have a limited depth in that price realm so this statement may not be universally true.... it is just my personal experience. If you try to negotiate a rate, I hope you post the outcome.


It is simply supply and demand. If an expensive teacher has no trouble getting students then it is possible that their rates are too low. I consider lesson prices to be a private matter and I don’t post them. Yes, I have negotiated.

I believe we’re discussing private teachers and not public conservatories.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/12/20 10:57 PM.

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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
LarryK #2933083 01/12/20 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by dogperson
Larry

if you called to check on prices for pisno lessons, would you assume that it is a negotiable rate? I would assume it is non-negotiable and would not consider saying ‘I’ll pay you xxx amount’.



Yes, I would assume the rate is negotiable, especially if it was way out of line, and I know of some teachers in the city whose stature has pushed their rates to much higher levels than the norm. At some point, a teacher will have no students if he or she pushes rates up too high. It’s better to have a student who shows up consistently, week after week, and pays a lower rate, than a higher paying student who gives up in a few months.


That has not been my experience with expensive teachers: they charge a premium, non-negotiable, and are not lacking for students. I will admit that I have a limited depth in that price realm so this statement may not be universally true.... it is just my personal experience. If you try to negotiate a rate, I hope you post the outcome.


It is simply supply and demand. If an expensive teacher has no trouble getting students then it is possible that their rates are too low. I consider lesson prices to be a private matter and I don’t post them. Yes, I have negotiated.


I take very, very occasional lessons from an instructor who charges 2.5 times the going rate and he does not lack for students. I do not consider that rate to be underpriced, however. 😊


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Peter K. Mose #2933087 01/12/20 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK


It is simply supply and demand. If an expensive teacher has no trouble getting students then it is possible that their rates are too low. I consider lesson prices to be a private matter and I don’t post them. Yes, I have negotiated.


Originally Posted by dogperson

I take very, very occasional lessons from an instructor who charges 2.5 times the going rate and he does not lack for students. I do not consider that rate to be underpriced, however. 😊


I know of a 4x difference for one teacher. I can’t believe this teacher has a full teaching schedule. If anything, the price makes sure he or she does not, which is what some professional performers want because they travel a lot and have other jobs. It’s a balancing act. Nobody considers the problems of setting prices too low and taking on too many students.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/12/20 11:10 PM.

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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
LarryK #2933121 01/13/20 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK

Are rich people such poor negotiators that they can’t negotiate a better hourly rate?

Tell you what. I get people who are really good negotiators and want to get a better fee. They don't become my customers. I have better things to do with my time. Also, those who start off haggling often end up being difficult to work with at every stage. This has got to be a lot worse in personal lessons, where that unpleasant person is in your face every second. Spare me the haggler negotiator. And again, there is the question of professional ethics.

Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Piano*Dad #2933128 01/13/20 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
(possibly the transfer wrecks AZN so detests .

Just to clarify: I get transfer wrecks from all tax brackets.

For all those posters who are okay with charging families with difficulties less -- where is the ethics in that?? If you really want to take the ethical high ground, then go ahead and charge everybody the same rate.


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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Piano*Dad #2933131 01/13/20 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
You look at reading ability, ear, signs of work ethic, and so on. You determine which students have greater potential via multiple criteria. If you choose to discount the price for a lower income student who is very good, or who has very high potential (as you define it) you can add a talented student to your pool who otherwise might not be able to study with you.

I was not an Econ major, but even I could've figured that out.


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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
AZNpiano #2933140 01/13/20 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano

For all those posters who are okay with charging families with difficulties less -- where is the ethics in that?

How is that unethical? Whom does it "hurt"? This was done for me when I was in a very bad situation, namely for my child. Should he have been locked out of music studies? That is ethical?

I will not touch "ethical high ground" because that feels like just sarcasm. It suggests that someone who has particular professional ethics is trying to be superior to others -- and thus they / we must be vilified - when it simply means someone has those particular professional ethics.

In my own profession I have from time charged a client less when there was a very urgent situation. There was no "ethical high ground", and it was not "unethical" to do so. You will have to explain why it would be so.

Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
AZNpiano #2933141 01/13/20 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
You look at reading ability, ear, signs of work ethic, and so on. You determine which students have greater potential via multiple criteria. If you choose to discount the price for a lower income student who is very good, or who has very high potential (as you define it) you can add a talented student to your pool who otherwise might not be able to study with you.

I was not an Econ major, but even I could've figured that out.

Yes, but Piano*Dad was the first to state it.

Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Peter K. Mose #2933145 01/13/20 03:27 AM
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If you have a studio with a fame and high caliber students under the spotlights, you can have a listed price that charges an arm and a leg. You can keep a pool of extraordinary students to earn you the fame, not necessarily pay the full price, and a pool of wealthy families to earn you money.

And there is nothing wrong with this, nothing unethical. Everyone gets what they want, the talents shine, and rich families can brag, you get the fame and the money.

But if your studio doesn't have that status yet, be careful with this. The rich people are usually rich for a reason and can be quite influential. The words, good or bad, can spread really fast and really far.

Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Peter K. Mose #2933151 01/13/20 04:23 AM
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Stimulating discussion from all, thanks! Part of the issue is also whether the piano teacher is trying to run a professional studio for the long haul, year in and year out, as a principal source of income, or teaching is a side hustle in an emerging "gig economy." If the latter, everything might be negotiable, just as Uber changes its rates constantly, depending on demand, weather, etc.

If the former, one customarily has a fixed professional rate for lessons. Some students can afford this rate easily, others with difficulty, and in many cases the teacher may never know which type of student is which. Or only learn which student is which informally, over years of lessons and invoices.

One variable in most piano lessons is their length: if a student cannot afford an hour lesson, she can perhaps afford a 45-minute lesson, or a 30-minute lesson.

Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
keystring #2933169 01/13/20 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by LarryK

Are rich people such poor negotiators that they can’t negotiate a better hourly rate?

Tell you what. I get people who are really good negotiators and want to get a better fee. They don't become my customers. I have better things to do with my time. Also, those who start off haggling often end up being difficult to work with at every stage. This has got to be a lot worse in personal lessons, where that unpleasant person is in your face every second. Spare me the haggler negotiator. And again, there is the question of professional ethics.


It’s interesting how you jump to the conclusion that people who negotiate are unpleasant people. How do you buy a piano, a house, or deal with Russian piano teachers? Haha. Negotiating is all about getting to a mutually agreeable number. Once that happens, it is my belief that the buyer and seller are on the same side. I am not unpleasant when I propose a different number. I don’t negotiate anything in my lessons and say things, like, well, I’m only playing 80% of the notes in that measure, sorry.

Anyway, I’m pretty sure that my lesson prices would cause most of you to scream out in pain but I pay for my lessons with a smile and have not regretted a single lesson, always show up on time week after week, work hard, do the assigned pieces, and I am not an unpleasant person. I’ve been taking classical guitar lessons for ten years and I took violin lessons for ten years before that, and now I also have piano lessons. I actually help to support three teachers, classical guitar, classical guitar ensemble, and piano.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/13/20 06:20 AM.

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Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Peter K. Mose #2933170 01/13/20 06:27 AM
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In decades of teaching, I never encountered this problem because it was something I would never have considered. I remember years ago, a very kind vet telling me I should never give away one of my kittens, because the new owner wouldn't "value" it. I remembered that advice.

When I started lessons, late at the age of nine because my parents couldn't afford them earlier, my mother was very candid about my having lessons was a "privilege" and that if I didn't practice, then there would be no lessons. What clever psychology! I never saw those lessons as a burden but as a treat!

BUT I had several teachers along the way who gave me bonuses. Extra time. Extra lessons. Sometimes a "reward" in the form of a new music book. So much kindness. Eventually one of these angels guided me to the Quebec Conservatory which accepted me as a scholarship student and opened my doorway to the world.

So I have done the same with many of my students. One family of three sisters got an entire Saturday morning as they bloomed and blossomed. Another dear adult lady bought me close to tears when I noticed her bruised fingers one day. And she explained she was cleaning buses at night to earn extra money. She was a proud Polynesian woman, strong and fierce and absolutely independent. I knew offering her a discount would offend her. So I waited a couple of weeks and announced she'd won the half year "scholarship" and her lessons would be half price for the next 6 months. And a few weeks later told her, that her scholarship could be "renewed" if she practiced well. She was with me for several years.

It seems to have become a tricky situation nowadays. I just announce the fees, accept the students whose parents have survived my rather strict interrogation ... parents are the problem almost all the time. And wait for things to unfold. But any "scholarships" given are done very very discreetly so there's no muttering among my clients.

Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
AZNpiano #2933219 01/13/20 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
You look at reading ability, ear, signs of work ethic, and so on. You determine which students have greater potential via multiple criteria. If you choose to discount the price for a lower income student who is very good, or who has very high potential (as you define it) you can add a talented student to your pool who otherwise might not be able to study with you.

I was not an Econ major, but even I could've figured that out.


Much of the discussion here seemed to find that a difficult concept ...

You think it's actually unethical to offer a lower-income family a price break? So Stanford (and virtually all selective colleges) behave unethically by offering need-based discounts on their resource-saturated educational experience? Stanford should be reserved for the rich? They should not think that social mobility might be one part of their mission? Perhaps we live in different ethical worlds.

Note that I have never advocated that piano teachers price discount based on income. It's a tricky proposition to do that effectively. You would know that if you really read the rest of my postings. All I have said is that it's possible to enlarge the talent pool, if you are willing to forego some income to do so.

Re: Setting Fees/Sliding Scales
Piano*Dad #2933226 01/13/20 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
You look at reading ability, ear, signs of work ethic, and so on. You determine which students have greater potential via multiple criteria. If you choose to discount the price for a lower income student who is very good, or who has very high potential (as you define it) you can add a talented student to your pool who otherwise might not be able to study with you.

I was not an Econ major, but even I could've figured that out.


Much of the discussion here seemed to find that a difficult concept ...

You think it's actually unethical to offer a lower-income family a price break? So Stanford (and virtually all selective colleges) behave unethically by offering need-based discounts on their resource-saturated educational experience? Stanford should be reserved for the rich? They should not think that social mobility might be one part of their mission? Perhaps we live in different ethical worlds.

Note that I have never advocated that piano teachers price discount based on income. It's a tricky proposition to do that effectively. You would know that if you really read the rest of my postings. All I have said is that it's possible to enlarge the talent pool, if you are willing to forego some income to do so.


Major universities are sitting on huge endowments, hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars. Stanford’s endowment is 27.7Billion dollars! They don’t need to charge tuition at all!

If you do the math, you will find that the universities often charge $50k and up per hour for classroom time.

No piano teacher has the savings to provide that kind of flexibility to offer better terms to their students. My teachers are struggling to pay the rent in New York City.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/13/20 09:45 AM.

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