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Ladies and gentleman, I do believe I have discovered a bigger issue. Watch the video and then see if you agree with my thoughts which I'll add under the video.
As you see, there is obviously a slight amount of binding in the wippen/spring. There is no way that this is normal. When I compare the regulating button noise between the wippen 35 & 79, it's minimal. So, What I envision is happening is that the repetition level spring is binding in the wippen then accelerates the jack button into the spoon faster than normal as the spring is 'released' from the grove in the underside of the repetition lever. At this point I will need to have a few of the wippens inspected to see if it's worth reworking the area where the spring rests in the underside of the repetition lever.
I don't have time to read everything previously here, but I would recommend to complete your regulation in its entirety first, then address problems found after. For example, from your video maybe some springs could be adjusted way too strong - and this is another important step of a complete regulation. I see regulation as interactive and also cumulative, in the sense that every time you complete all steps, everything becomes gradually more stable and at the right place. Then at the next regulation, all adjustments needed will be way less than previously, etc. About springs, on my grand piano I personally adjust them very light, almost weak, as I like my action to be. YMMV
I don't have time to read everything previously here, but I would recommend to complete your regulation in its entirety first, then address problems found after. For example, from your video maybe some springs could be adjusted way too strong - and this is another important step of a complete regulation. I see regulation as interactive and also cumulative, in the sense that every time you complete all steps, everything becomes gradually more stable and at the right place. Then at the next regulation, all adjustments needed will be way less than previously, etc. About springs, on my grand piano I personally adjust them very light, almost weak, as I like my action to be. YMMV
I would typically agree with this method. However, what I just recently discovered is a finding to put the brakes on. These wippens will need some wood working attention before moving forward.
Further discoveries with the wippens. You may need good headphones or speakers to hear what I am. Looks like I will be getting up close and personal with the wippens now!
What I mean by this is you need to adjust the tension of the springs before repairing, because if some of them are set way too strong, you will continue to damage the wood where they end up touching. Do as you wish, but personally I would complete the regulation, and then proceed with the repairs noted during each step.
The repetition lever does not go down that far normally. The hammer is stopped by the cushion. Having it stop before it goes down too far is a good thing.
You are spot on, and experiencing another piece of evidence that proves the fact that the designers KNEW that a piano has about a 30-40 year lifespan, at which point significant issues would need to be addressed. Simply a fact resulting from the materials used, and the methods of manufacture.
Yes, it is simply wear and tear. Your automotive (and obvious mechanical prowess) background is a good parallel.
Your proposed fix is a good one. Simply smooth out the "bearing channel", lubricate (sharp #2 pencil works pretty well but if you come up with something better I want to know), and reset the "bearing". However I suggest doing it WITHOUT de-pinning it. You'll need more tools and experience to re-pin than you probably want to get into.
Evidence would seem to indicate that the previous owner played the SAME tunes on the SAME keys MANY MANY times, wearing the daylights out of those notes. I would be willing to wager (if I were a betting man) that they correlate to the simpler keys using mostly naturals...C, F, G
If you are going to go to all that trouble and be removing al the whips, you might as well plan on bolstering the whip cushion too, as that is often a significant noise generator in a heavily used action.
I have read about setting spring tension. This is unfortunately something I do not know how to do correctly. If I had a tool to measure tension or torque of the spring, that would make life easier. Any tips on how to do it? I can say that all of the springs feel uniform as I slowly press them down.
Peter - I would feel more comfortable removing the repetition lever then inspect with a magnifying glass while repairing the spring groove. Is there something I could potentially damage by removing the pin? I have the pin tool sitting in my cart at Howard Piano so let me know for sure if I shouldn't go that route. For lube, the only thing I can think of is graphite or PTFE powder?
If you are going to go to all that trouble and be removing al the whips, you might as well plan on bolstering the whip cushion too, as that is often a significant noise generator in a heavily used action.
Pwg
Is this the felt that rides on top of the capstan?
I must say that I find this discussion very interesting, and I feel like I'm learning something.
Also, I must say that of all the things I've studied and researched and read regarding grand piano regulation, I have never read or heard of this issue (spring grove bearing wear/indentation in the grove) discussed or mentioned, ever. I have read about adjusting the whippen spring tension as part of the regulation process.
Also again (:-), what about BDB's suggestion that the jack doesn't move that high inside the top whippen lever during normal play, which would mean the spring might remain in one spot in the grove, and not slide back and forth in the grove. It would seem to me that if that spring slides that much in that bearing grove, it would wear the dickens out of that grove in no time at all. Also, (a third time:-) I have never read that the spring bearing groove in the whippen is a common lubrication point that should be lubricated due to friction.
I'm afraid I'm from Missouri on this one... I would want to see how far the spring slides in that groove during normal playing travel of the whippin parts. It could be that the indention is where the spring resides all the time, and is part of the normal wear and tear process. The sliding back and forth in the groove is what I'm wondering about...
Just a few thoughts.
Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
I'm glad you are learning through this process. I for sure am learning quite a bit as well!
Looking at my #79 whippen while barely moving the repetition lever, I can assure you the spring moves in the groove. As soon as the lever goes into the motion, the spring starts to slide in the groove. If you like, I would be happy to make a video showing this.
I can understand that this is not normal to address. Apparently I purchased a piano with 200k miles on it...haha.
Great videos Matt, good job finding the problem. With respect to Peter, I don't think you'll have much difficulty removing and reinstalling the pin if you have that same pin removing tool from Howard that I have. I am in the process of repinning all the tight flanges on my 1927 Kurtzmann upright, and I am simply punching out the pin, reaming the felt, and reinstalling the pin. My only problem is if sometimes I ream the felt too much, the pin ends up a little loose. But without any reaming, I find replacing the pin results in things going back to how they were.
Worst comes to worst, the flange ends up too loose. In that case, just replace the felt with a new one, and it should be snug again. You've probably seen Howard's video on rebushing flanges, and it pretty much works the way he says. I think that risk is worth the much easier time you'll have working on the wood if you take the wippen apart.
Good luck!
Last edited by Emery Wang; 01/12/2012:00 AM.
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
Matt, I watched this video by Howard Piano showing how to adjust the butterfly type repetition lever spring; what I noticed was that when he depresses the key on the grand action model, the repetition lever doesn't move much at all. At least nowhere near as much as you demonstrated in your videos, which are great, I might add.
So, I'm still not convinced that the repetition lever spring moves/slides very much, if at all, in the spring bearing groove in the repetition lever. Also, and this is by no means a criticism, or disagreement, or argument whatsoever, but the way that you are pushing down on the repetition lever to make that spring slide back and forth in the bearing groove is not a normal motion or movement that the whippen assembly would follow during normal playing; or at least that is how it seems to me.
However, I could be wrong.
Here is the video by Howard Piano showing the grand action whippen assembly, and repetition lever going through the motions; I wish I could see the underside of the repetition lever spring bearing groove during this process to see how much it moves/slides in the bearing groove, if any... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5q7OxnHkkM
Hey, we both may learn something here!
Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
So we can both answer our own questions, he is what I will do tomorrow.
1.) Install the hammer section back onto the action stack. 2.) Install the action stack back on the key frame.
Then I will measure how far the jack exits the repetition window with the key pressed all the way down. I will measure with my dial caliper. Then I'll take it back apart and move the repetition lever to the point that was measured during normal keyboard movement.
Matt, I think you're doing a good job of locating the issues with this piano.
You don't need to put everything back together to determine the travel of the spring. The point of resistance is the end of the spring travel. This wear can effect performance if you make changes to the regulation that change the travel of the spring. For this reason I would definitely correct the wear.
I would avoid disassembling the wipppin if at all possible. I've reworked that grove many times and have never had to take them apart. The spring can be lifted out to the side giving you room to work. You'll have to figure out the best way to rework the grove. Be sure to re-lubricate the grove afterwards. Also make sure the the spring surface is smooth so that it doesn't quickly wear the grove again.
While the wippens are out I would treat the jack return cushion and the heal cushion with VS Profelt. The felt needs to dry without any spring tension on it. That will reduce a lot of noise.
Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
Obviously something has caused extreme wear in the rep spring dept on this piano. Whatever is normal or abnormal is kind of not really an issue (at least to me). It needs to be addressed for proper function from here on out.
I think (repeat THINK) the rep springs are significantly too strong (they could have been regulated that way for some specific purpose). The test is to play the note into check, then just ease up slightly on the key to release the hammer from check and observe what the hammer does. If it jumps up wildly it is much too strong. Ideally it should rise smoothly and steadily toward the string (not real slow, but with firmness). This is easier demonstrated than described.
If the springs are generally much too strong, and the same notes pounded on deep in the key thousands of times (such as in gospel music or maybe strong handed boogie woogie) I could envision the springs embedding themselves into the wood as we have seen.
So, the groove needs to be smoothed to eliminate the depression, then cleaned and lubricated (graphite pencil), then use a moto-tool with brush to polish the loop on the spring, re-install and regulate. All this should be able to be done without disconnecting the rep lever. Re-pinning is not as easy as it "appears" (that is doing it properly), and I think you would be creating much more unnecessary work for yourself (unless of course you are planning to become a piano technician, but why would anyone want to do that?)
And if I was doing this I would absolutely bolster the whip/capstan cloth (yes Matt, you are correct on that) since it's already out. Remember that ALL parts have been subjected to heavy use here, not just one or two, but put your time in where it really counts (that's my viewpoint anyway), and if you really want to replace those jack punchings, do it while they're out and easily accessible.
Obviously something has caused extreme wear in the rep spring dept on this piano. Whatever is normal or abnormal is kind of not really an issue (at least to me). It needs to be addressed for proper function from here on out.
I think (repeat THINK) the rep springs are significantly too strong (they could have been regulated that way for some specific purpose). The test is to play the note into check, then just ease up slightly on the key to release the hammer from check and observe what the hammer does. If it jumps up wildly it is much too strong. Ideally it should rise smoothly and steadily toward the string (not real slow, but with firmness). This is easier demonstrated than described.
If the springs are generally much too strong, and the same notes pounded on deep in the key thousands of times (such as in gospel music or maybe strong handed boogie woogie) I could envision the springs embedding themselves into the wood as we have seen.
This makes a lot of sense, Peter, and seems to me to be the most logical explanation of the indention wear in the whippen assembly return lever spring groove. Also, and this is pure conjecture on my part, if that return spring traveled/moved back and forth in the groove bearing, as was demonstrated, there would be a longer area of wear in that bearing groove/slot than just a small indention in the wood in one spot. The wear pattern in the groove would be much longer, and deeper, most likely, and would mimic the travel pattern/distance in the spring groove.
You say that you have reworked and smoothed out this area on worn whippen assemblies/repetition levers many times over the years. I would think this would be a normal/routine part of rebuilding/refurbishing the whippen assembly. But I'm on the outside looking in.
By-the-way, I watched your YT video in your PW member signature, and I enjoyed watching it. And, since it was actually a TV station production/broadcast, you are a TV celebrity!
I always enjoy your posts, and your generosity in sharing your exceptional Piano Tech wisdom, skills, knowledge and experience with others here on PW!
Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
I will try to address everyones comments in this response.
Originally Posted by Bill McKaig,RPT
Matt, I think you're doing a good job of locating the issues with this piano.
You don't need to put everything back together to determine the travel of the spring. The point of resistance is the end of the spring travel. This wear can effect performance if you make changes to the regulation that change the travel of the spring. For this reason I would definitely correct the wear.
I would avoid disassembling the wipppin if at all possible. I've reworked that grove many times and have never had to take them apart. The spring can be lifted out to the side giving you room to work. You'll have to figure out the best way to rework the grove. Be sure to re-lubricate the grove afterwards. Also make sure the the spring surface is smooth so that it doesn't quickly wear the grove again.
While the wippens are out I would treat the jack return cushion and the heal cushion with VS Profelt. The felt needs to dry without any spring tension on it. That will reduce a lot of noise.
I started to work on one of the whippen spring groves using a very small Craftsman file. There are 6 different files in the set. I started using the rounded tip to blend the non-indented areas before and after the groove. After those were gone, I switched to a oval type and used it on it's side, as it's profile closely matches the groove. The wear in the groove is now gone, however I would like it to be smoother. I'm going to go crap some sand paper too hopefully end up with a very smooth surface. As far as lubrication, Peter mentioned #2 so that's all I know to use now.
Jack return cushion, you are referring to the jack regulating button? I apologize if I don't grasp all of the lingo. There is quite a bit more felt in those areas vs the key bushings. So, should I be using more than a drop?
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Well...
I think (repeat THINK) the rep springs are significantly too strong (they could have been regulated that way for some specific purpose). The test is to play the note into check, then just ease up slightly on the key to release the hammer from check and observe what the hammer does. If it jumps up wildly it is much too strong. Ideally it should rise smoothly and steadily toward the string (not real slow, but with firmness). This is easier demonstrated than described.
If the springs are generally much too strong, and the same notes pounded on deep in the key thousands of times (such as in gospel music or maybe strong handed boogie woogie) I could envision the springs embedding themselves into the wood as we have seen.
So, the groove needs to be smoothed to eliminate the depression, then cleaned and lubricated (graphite pencil), then use a moto-tool with brush to polish the loop on the spring, re-install and regulate. All this should be able to be done without disconnecting the rep lever. Re-pinning is not as easy as it "appears" (that is doing it properly), and I think you would be creating much more unnecessary work for yourself (unless of course you are planning to become a piano technician, but why would anyone want to do that?)
And if I was doing this I would absolutely bolster the whip/capstan cloth (yes Matt, you are correct on that) since it's already out. Remember that ALL parts have been subjected to heavy use here, not just one or two, but put your time in where it really counts (that's my viewpoint anyway), and if you really want to replace those jack punchings, do it while they're out and easily accessible.
With the whip/capstan. Are we you just talking about adding a few VS Profelt drops to the area? Maybe needle before or after? I like the idea to polish the spring tip as well. Thank you for mentioning that as I would have overlooked it. I will go through the repair and polishing first then circle back around with a clear video to help check the spring tension. Thank you for the explanation on how we are going to do that.
Pwg
Rickster - If you go back and watch my first video of the whippen/spring. You can clearly see the spring sliding in the groove. While it is not a lot of movement, it is there. There spring does not pivot which as that would cause the spring tension to move up and down as it's compressed and decompressed. When it slides, the spring tension would stay more uniform through the movement of the repetition lever.
