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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2518396 03/07/16 06:41 AM
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The ornamentation topic is interesting, and it would be useful for a novice like myself to have some pointers on when to ornament a note, such as whereabouts in a measure or phrase, where in the pulse, and whether there is guidance for which form of ornament to choose or situations where one ornament may be less appropriate than another.

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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2518511 03/07/16 03:03 PM
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outo has already given an excellent explanation above so I will not repeat everything. Although interpretation is generally quite free in Baroque the pulse of the music has to be kept strictly. You can even see this in some music of Bach, when he intended to slow down he would start with a series of 32nd notes and then mix in some 16ths and 8ths, whereas Chopin would just use 16ths and write a 13 on top of it or something of that sort. wink

As for ornaments, I certainly am not an expert either so what I will write is just my personal feeling. I think that ornaments are more likely to be added on passing notes and never on any opening or resolving note (where 'opening' and 'resolving' refer to internal sections as well as the piece as a whole). But they are often heard on the note just before a resolution. What I like to do, though, is to play it differently on the second repeat to make it fresh. You can play the first repeat plainly and then add some ornaments on the second repeat.

For dynamics my teacher recommends varying them according to the voices. In most Baroque music you first hear one voice as the lead and then this voice fades and the second voice takes the lead. You should bring out the voice currently leading by making it (slightly) louder. In this piece there aren't too many places where the bass takes over but you can see it in the 8th measure for instance.


Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: Justin Davis] #2518669 03/07/16 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin Davis


#2 The middle section where your right hand starts on the b quarter note then g-a-b-g eight-note patter you seemed to slow down a little much for my taste and then toward the end it was just a little hurried.



Thanks. Bar 17, right? I think I slow down because I have hard time with this in my right hand. I went with the fingerings in the book, and so I start 17 with #5 on B. When starting the next bar (18), I have tendency to start with B, and not A. I guess it's a weak #4 finger, and my pinky wants to dominate smile


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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2518681 03/08/16 12:53 AM
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I am no expert in Bach or the German Baroque in general. But here's a table of ornaments markings for Bach:
table

I am personally much more into French and Italian Baroque music. Composers like Rameau liked to put in a lot or decoration and carefully marked the ornaments into the score. Scarlatti often wrote out the ornamentation other than trills (such as mordents) with small notes, but wasn't always consistent with his markings of trills, so there's plenty left to interpretation.

I think most people would agree that in Baroque:
- Most ornaments start on the beat
- Trills start on the upper note
- Trills are not free (like in romantic era) but measured (are equal divisions of the beat) and the ornament notes are often part of the melody, not just decoration.

But as usual there are of course exceptions to all rules.

There's a lot you can do with the ornaments. Especially in the beginning you may not be able to play fast trills, so you can always shorten them, thus making them slower or even just play couple of extra notes.

If you like to add ornaments yourself, look at the long notes that would have been difficult to sustain on the harpsichords, so it would be logical to decorate them.

Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2520362 03/12/16 08:08 PM
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I had my lesson today and we had an interesting discussion on this piece. She went on to explain how the harpsichord had a different sound, lack of sustain compared today's piano, and so ornaments were used. As I write this, I see outo makes a similar comment above.

I'm glad I picked this piece as it's been a great learning experience. Nevertheless, she wants me to work on the second part, less legato and detaching the notes at the end of a slur, and not slur the entire 4 bars smile It's going to be tough to undo the finger memory.

If all goes well next week, she'll record it and it will be submitted to the "school". 3 recordings are done within a 6 month period, this will be the second. The first one was Hungarian Rhapsody no 2 by Liszt out of Alfred's Vol 2.


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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2931962 01/09/20 01:06 PM
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I've been revisiting earlier pieces that I learned to see if can play them differently, or in a more relaxed way. Then I remembered this was one of my earlier posts here. Hopefully after 4 years, it's a little better ;0 I think I'm doing a better job taming the right pinkie.

4 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2SZ4XDYL44

Yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MfV-cHEIHs


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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2931967 01/09/20 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I've been revisiting earlier pieces that I learned to see if can play them differently, or in a more relaxed way. Then I remembered this was one of my earlier posts here. Hopefully after 4 years, it's a little better ;0 I think I'm doing a better job taming the right pinkie.

4 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2SZ4XDYL44

Yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MfV-cHEIHs

You certainly got the ornaments in this time! thumb

I should do this piece again myself as I did this piece July of 2018 and didn't have any ornaments in it then.


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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2931973 01/09/20 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I've been revisiting earlier pieces that I learned to see if can play them differently, or in a more relaxed way. Then I remembered this was one of my earlier posts here. Hopefully after 4 years, it's a little better ;0 I think I'm doing a better job taming the right pinkie.

4 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2SZ4XDYL44

Yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MfV-cHEIHs



There's no doubt you've improved!

The tempo is far more stable, the slight pauses between the sections have gone and not to mention the addition of ornaments that are well defined. thumb


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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2931998 01/09/20 02:13 PM
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The top section sounded OK. The spot I'm hearing is 10s into the video. The R (melody) ended the phrase on a B. There is an A after which is the melody note. The B is a grace note which means you'd run over it quickly and onto the melody note A which is missing in the recording. Since the B is considered an add-on and not a note in the melody, omitting the B is not an issue but omitting the A is.

The bottom section you are leaving a slight gap between phrases as mentioned already. Otherwise very nice playing.

Keep up the good work...

Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: thepianoplayer416] #2932013 01/09/20 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
The top section sounded OK. The spot I'm hearing is 10s into the video. The R (melody) ended the phrase on a B. There is an A after which is the melody note. The B is a grace note which means you'd run over it quickly and onto the melody note A which is missing in the recording. Since the B is considered an add-on and not a note in the melody, omitting the B is not an issue but omitting the A is.


Thanks. Which measure are you referring to, 8?. I don't have a grace note in my edition, an appoggiatura instead. Also, the edition doesn't have any ornaments, they were added in by my first teacher years ago.

Or are you referring to the first video? Yes, that phrase was wrong, it ended on B.

Last edited by bSharp(C)yclist; 01/09/20 02:47 PM.

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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2932020 01/09/20 02:56 PM
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For reference, the following is the Urtext for BWV Anh. 114:

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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2932027 01/09/20 03:05 PM
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Thanks, Tyrone. I read and play from the version in Alfred's Masterwork Classics (Level 3) book. It has no ornaments in it, but the ornaments drawn in by my first teacher is consistent with what you show.


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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2932028 01/09/20 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Thanks, Tyrone. I read and play from the version in Alfred's Masterwork Classics (Level 3) book. It has no ornaments in it, but the ornaments drawn in by my first teacher is consistent with what you show.

I posted it though because the urtext does have a grace note in the 8th measure. I think this is a minor point though.

I am learning BVW 939 and the edition I am using is very different from the urtext and is missing 3 mordents! Now that's a big difference.


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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2932031 01/09/20 03:13 PM
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Don't the grace notes have a line it, and called an acciaccatura ? I think the above is considered an appoggiatura.


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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2932036 01/09/20 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Don't the grace notes have a line it, and called an acciaccatura ? I think the above is considered an appoggiatura.

Oh, you're probably right. I just lumped all of those small notes together as grace notes. I guess I am wrong about that.

EDIT: It seems like some of the sources I'm googling lump both with and without slash together under the umbrella term, "grace note". Seems like there might be more than one interpretation of what a "grace note" is.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2932041 01/09/20 03:30 PM
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I love this piece! Yes, the recent one had more character, although I thought both were lovely. Thanks for the ornaments, too. In the last couple of weeks I've started playing from my Anna's Notebook and Young Mozart again because they've always been such fun/lovely music, but my version doesn't indicate the ornaments.

I will have to say though, that I've never seen a room vacate so quickly at a gig as both of them did when I used those books at the senior living places laugh *I* thought the music was cool, but alas and alack they prefer even poorly played ragtime to these, at least the way I play them laugh A friend of mine plays Bach at her assisted living place and they love it, but when she tries Tuxedo Junction they leave. Guess it's in the kind of music you really like to play, eh?

Any way, thanks again for posting your minuet - both versions were very fun.


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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2932078 01/09/20 04:43 PM
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I learned that piece many years ago, but my version didn't have the mordent. I don't know who's Petzold, I thought Bach was the composer.


Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
For reference, the following is the Urtext for BWV Anh. 114:




"The piano keys are black and white but they sound like a million colors in your mind.“
Maria Cristina

Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: Serge88] #2932085 01/09/20 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Serge88
I don't know who's Petzold, I thought Bach was the composer.

Originally, it was believed that Bach was the composer since the piece was found in the Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach and had been given a BWV Anh. number, however, now it is universally believed to be by Christian Petzold, and not Bach.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2932091 01/09/20 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Don't the grace notes have a line it, and called an acciaccatura ? I think the above is considered an appoggiatura.


You're correct. Without the slash through it, this is an appoggiatura and is *not* supposed to be played quickly. That note will last a quarter note, and the dotted half note following it will last one half note. That is, the appoggiatura steals some duration from the note following it. Start the appoggiatura note on the first beat, and the half note on the second beat. (This is what my teacher told me to do.)


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Re: Menuet in G Major - Feedback [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2932094 01/09/20 05:12 PM
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I'm just a student myself so I have no advice to offer but I enjoyed your playing!


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