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Re: Which is best? [Re: dogperson] #2930960 01/06/20 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by dogperson

Not really. Let’s just pick one hypothetical brand. If you are blindfolded, you may prefer the 6 ft versus the 9 ft, even though the 9 ft is more expensive. In addition, if you are blindfolded, you buy the tone and touch; the name on the fallboard is irrelevant. Extra cost = better does not always hold up.


But I bet it often does. I'm sure people who have played a lot of grand pianos can tell the difference. I'm sure that more expensive grands tend to have had a lot more attention paid to them with regards to the voicing and action, and I'm sure they get better components.


Larry, that has not been my experience in playing grands ‘in the wild’. If this were true, the longer piano of s particular brand would always be preferred; it is not. A piano purchase is an individual decision not always related to the most expensive, even if affordable by the purchaser.


I wonder when comparing pianos of the same size how often people will pick out the more expensive piano. Where is the guy who picked the $160k Steinway? I want to hear from him.

I'm tired of the old argument that floats around on this forum that cheap things are as good or better than expensive things.


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Re: Which is best? [Re: LarryK] #2930966 01/06/20 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK


I'm tired of the old argument that floats around on this forum that cheap things are as good or better than expensive things.


I suppose that complaint may have some merit, but one makes do with what one has. And forums are for varied opinions.

If only very fine musicianship depended on an expensive instrument: we could all just buy it! Alas, much depends on the mind, experiences of life, spiritual / emotional state, teachers, technique, etc.... But nicer instruments are indeed, nicer.

Re: Which is best? [Re: Aks780] #2930972 01/06/20 05:32 PM
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If I decided to buy any ‘new to me’ acoustic piano, 90% of those listed would be unavailable to me unless I were to get on an airplane. Generally, we have choices where we live unless we have significant $$$ or get lucky with an occasional stray used piano. I have Yamaha and Steinway dealers : that is it.

I think we often forget that on these forums and assume everything is available everywhere. They are not.


Valid point. I guess a lot of pianos get sold that way.
However, asking questions in such case is almost mute.

Norbert smirk

Last edited by Norbert; 01/06/20 05:36 PM.

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Re: Which is best? [Re: Norbert] #2930976 01/06/20 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
Quote
If I decided to buy any ‘new to me’ acoustic piano, 90% of those listed would be unavailable to me unless I were to get on an airplane. Generally, we have choices where we live unless we have significant $$$ or get lucky with an occasional stray used piano. I have Yamaha and Steinway dealers : that is it.

I think we often forget that on these forums and assume everything is available everywhere. They are not.


Valid point. I guess a lot of pianos get sold that way.

Norbert smirk


That is one of many things I love about Yamaha Piano dealers. They’re allowed to carry other brands and are in partnerships with other piano makers. That’s a great thing for those of us out in the boonies (as far as piano culture). How else would I ever get to play a Bösendorfer or Schimmel, much less an Estonia?


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Re: Which is best? [Re: LarryK] #2931006 01/06/20 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by dogperson

Not really. Let’s just pick one hypothetical brand. If you are blindfolded, you may prefer the 6 ft versus the 9 ft, even though the 9 ft is more expensive. In addition, if you are blindfolded, you buy the tone and touch; the name on the fallboard is irrelevant. Extra cost = better does not always hold up.


But I bet it often does. I'm sure people who have played a lot of grand pianos can tell the difference. I'm sure that more expensive grands tend to have had a lot more attention paid to them with regards to the voicing and action, and I'm sure they get better components.


Larry, that has not been my experience in playing grands ‘in the wild’. If this were true, the longer piano of s particular brand would always be preferred; it is not. A piano purchase is an individual decision not always related to the most expensive, even if affordable by the purchaser.


I wonder when comparing pianos of the same size how often people will pick out the more expensive piano. Where is the guy who picked the $160k Steinway? I want to hear from him.

I'm tired of the old argument that floats around on this forum that cheap things are as good or better than expensive things.
I think those arguments are mainly voiced by dealers of less expensive makes.

I also think that when one compares pianos from the same maker the longer piano will usually sound better. If that's not the case either the maker has designed the longer piano poorly or more often the specific example of the longer piano needs some attention.

Finally, although Fine's ranking system is now mostly based on a piano's cost:
1. He says that cost and quality/performance generally go together.
2. The latest rankings are very close to the rankings from the time when the pianos were ranked on performance, warranty, durability, etc. The only major differences I can recall are the high ranking of Estonia and Shigeru Kawai.

Re: Which is best? [Re: LarryK] #2931009 01/06/20 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
I wonder when comparing pianos of the same size how often people will pick out the more expensive piano. Where is the guy who picked the $160k Steinway? I want to hear from him.

I'm tired of the old argument that floats around on this forum that cheap things are as good or better than expensive things.

If there was such a job as someone to pick the expensive thing, my wife would want it. She insinuates that looking at price tags is beneath her when looking for pretty things for herself, then she unfailingly picks the more expensive item based on "aesthetics". 😭


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Re: Which is best? [Re: Aks780] #2931017 01/06/20 06:57 PM
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Tyrone, laugh

As to the blindfolded test... besides being an unrealistic hypothetical in the first place, it also does not apply to used pianos. If you're buying a used piano, you don't want to make your decision based on sound and touch alone. Sorry to beat a dead horse (as it were), but a thorough, and visual, inspection is also a must.

I can't believe there's even an argument about choosing pianos based on a blindfolded test, and as if that's not bad enough, I'm participating in it!! whome


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Re: Which is best? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2931019 01/06/20 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by LarryK
I wonder when comparing pianos of the same size how often people will pick out the more expensive piano. Where is the guy who picked the $160k Steinway? I want to hear from him.

I'm tired of the old argument that floats around on this forum that cheap things are as good or better than expensive things.

If there was such a job as someone to pick the expensive thing, my wife would want it. She insinuates that looking at price tags is beneath her when looking for pretty things for herself, then she unfailingly picks the more expensive item based on "aesthetics". 😭


LOL. In old school restaurants in France, women were given menus without prices. The idea was that if you invited a lady to dinner, she got to choose what she wanted without regard to price. I think this idea has pretty much died out these days.

There is a correlation between price and quality.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/06/20 06:58 PM.

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Re: Which is best? [Re: ShiroKuro] #2931035 01/06/20 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Tyrone, laugh

As to the blindfolded test... besides being an unrealistic hypothetical in the first place, it also does not apply to used pianos. If you're buying a used piano, you don't want to make your decision based on sound and touch alone. Sorry to beat a dead horse (as it were), but a thorough, and visual, inspection is also a must.

I can't believe there's even an argument about choosing pianos based on a blindfolded test, and as if that's not bad enough, I'm participating in it!! whome
Actually, a visual inspection is appropriate whether the piano is used or new. I don't think anyone is recommending using only a blindfold test of tone and touch as the only thing necessary to choose a piano. They are recommending it as a way not to be influenced by the maker's name or the piano's price and would always recommend a visual inspection after the blindfold test. So the idea applies to both new and used pianos.

Of course, people rarely, if ever, do a blindfold test partly because few can play blindfolded. It's more of a way of saying that one should not be overly influenced by the maker's name.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/06/20 07:32 PM.
Re: Which is best? [Re: LarryK] #2931062 01/06/20 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK


LOL. In old school restaurants in France, women were given menus without prices. The idea was that if you invited a lady to dinner, she got to choose what she wanted without regard to price. I think this idea has pretty much died out these days.

There is a correlation between price and quality.



That is not always the case.



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Re: Which is best? [Re: NobleHouse] #2931069 01/06/20 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by LarryK


LOL. In old school restaurants in France, women were given menus without prices. The idea was that if you invited a lady to dinner, she got to choose what she wanted without regard to price. I think this idea has pretty much died out these days.

There is a correlation between price and quality.



That is not always the case.


Ok, I'll try again. There is often a correlation between price and quality.


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Re: Which is best? [Re: Aks780] #2931083 01/06/20 10:14 PM
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A visual inspection is very important as well .Sound, tone and the sensitive response from the piano
is what attracts one to a particular piano. I played my.piano over a period of a few months.We had played a few Sauter models during a trip to France.
When we finally decided to upgrade to this piano we contacted Ulrich Sauter and asked him questions about the authenticity of this model , detailed questions ,especially specifications .
where piano was strung back (as a reader of of PW this was almost an obsession for us considering the price of the instrument ) Sauter is a small manufacturer where all instruments are
still truly made in Germany.
We tried a few 130 Sauter pianos but for us the one we originally tried stood out perhaps because
it had been in the dealer's store longer (perhaps ) and was allowed to adjust. (a year )
Others we tried in Vancouver were the Bechstein K8 (loved it )Schimmel 130 C ,Steinways K52 (not remarkable ) YUS5 , Bluthner 46 "(size ?) If you get to try a few other Sauter models you may be surprised .,also not as expensive as the MC 130.
Do find out as much as you can about any particular piano before you actually buy the piano.
I have never tried the Bosendorfer 130 or a Steingraeber 130 .The Bechstein 124 Elegance is also
wonderfull. (tried that in Paris )
Best wishes ,your upright is out there waiting for you !

Last edited by Lady Bird; 01/06/20 10:17 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Which is best? [Re: Aks780] #2931085 01/06/20 10:24 PM
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Please ignor ,move ,or remove the above post. It was. meant for.the thread
about "high level uprights ) Sorry about that !

Re: Which is best? [Re: LarryK] #2931164 01/07/20 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by LarryK


LOL. In old school restaurants in France, women were given menus without prices. The idea was that if you invited a lady to dinner, she got to choose what she wanted without regard to price. I think this idea has pretty much died out these days.

There is a correlation between price and quality.



That is not always the case.


Ok, I'll try again. There is often a correlation between price and quality.



Now, I can agree with that statement. laugh



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Re: Which is best? [Re: pianoloverus] #2931167 01/07/20 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Tyrone, laugh

As to the blindfolded test... besides being an unrealistic hypothetical in the first place, it also does not apply to used pianos. If you're buying a used piano, you don't want to make your decision based on sound and touch alone. Sorry to beat a dead horse (as it were), but a thorough, and visual, inspection is also a must.

I can't believe there's even an argument about choosing pianos based on a blindfolded test, and as if that's not bad enough, I'm participating in it!! whome
Actually, a visual inspection is appropriate whether the piano is used or new. I don't think anyone is recommending using only a blindfold test of tone and touch as the only thing necessary to choose a piano. They are recommending it as a way not to be influenced by the maker's name or the piano's price and would always recommend a visual inspection after the blindfold test. So the idea applies to both new and used pianos.

Of course, people rarely, if ever, do a blindfold test partly because few can play blindfolded. It's more of a way of saying that one should not be overly influenced by the maker's name.

If you could cover the insignias on fallboard and plates it might be a bit more fair. But there’s no way to completely hide fit and finish.


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Re: Which is best? [Re: Aks780] #2931183 01/07/20 09:20 AM
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Personally, I’m pretty sure that we are influenced by the “brand” we see when we sit in front of the piano....it’s human....so, testing pianos blindfolded would lead to very interesting conclusions, I guess.
A lot of studies have demonstrated that in other domains ( perfume, etc..)
A n expensive product from a luxury brand is supposed to have better qualities
Than others, just because it’s expensive and coming from a “ luxury name”
.
And perhaps the top brand pianos would not appear on the top list after having played them...
It Should be easy finally, just by hiding the name near the lead ( of course, one shouldn’t look to much around the keys...)
And like tasting different wines blindfolded,, we could expect some surprises!

Last edited by rolex67; 01/07/20 09:27 AM.
Re: Which is best? [Re: Aks780] #2931186 01/07/20 09:32 AM
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Lid...not lead...;-)

Re: Which is best? [Re: rolex67] #2931187 01/07/20 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rolex67
Personally, I’m pretty sure that we are influenced by the “brand” we see when we sit in front of the piano....it’s human....so, testing pianos blindfolded would lead to very interesting conclusions, I guess.
A lot of studies have demonstrated that in other domains ( perfume, etc..)
A n expensive product from a luxury brand is supposed to have better qualities
Than others, just because it’s expensive and coming from a “ luxury name”
.
And perhaps the top brand pianos would not appear on the top list after having played them...
It Should be easy finally, just by hiding the name near the lead ( of course, one shouldn’t look to much around the keys...)
And like tasting different wines blindfolded,, we could expect some surprises!


There have been tests done with experienced violinists who were blindfolded and asked to play several different instruments not knowing which one they were playing. They were not able to identify the historic high-priced instrument during the test


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Re: Which is best? [Re: Aks780] #2931198 01/07/20 10:26 AM
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Here is a link to one of the tests

Violin blindfold test

YouTube of test

Re: Which is best? [Re: dogperson] #2931212 01/07/20 11:01 AM
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No, no, no. Don't ever do a blind test. Lets assume you can afford both pianos (otherwise there is no point in the test) and think of the consequences.

Either:

a) You prefer the expensive one, but then have just wasted your time and gained nothing over just playing the pianos normally in the store. Except having perhaps introduced a nagging doubt into your purchase that it was perhaps not that much better than the cheap one and you have squandered some money.
b) You prefer the cheap one but still buy the expensive one once you find out what the brands actually are. This is obviously stupid as you are guaranteeing angst for ever onwards, but is probably quite a common thing to do.
c) You prefer the cheap one and buy it. But then you haven't bought the best piano you can afford and will probably regret it for ever while wondering if it is actually maintaining its performance and tuning as well as the expensive one would have. And as your piano skills grow with time (hopefully) you'll then keep wondering if the cheap one is still the right one and whether you should have actually bought the top model anyway.
d) You can't tell any difference between the two either in their sound nor touch and feel. In which you just wonder if you are an incompetent clod with clay fingers and deaf ears not fit to be a musician.
etc.

Just don't do it :-)

Last edited by gwing; 01/07/20 11:02 AM.
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