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Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2853580 05/29/19 12:01 PM
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Re: Key pivot length
JoBert #2853595 05/29/19 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Faiz
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by Faiz
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

@Faiz Thanks for the photos, the first photo is easy to interpret, whereas I am having trouble understanding what is being measured in the second.
the second photo was intended to show the other end of the ruler.

That can't be right. The first photo shows the 5cm mark in the middle of the black keys, the second photo shows the same 5cm clearly way behind the black keys. It doesn't look as if the ruler in the first photo was in the same position as in the second, so the two photos together don't really show a useful measurement, as was probably intended. (It rather looks as if the first photo simply measures the visible length of the keys, with the end of the ruler at the fallboard, and not at the balance pins, as the second pic might suggest.)

Yes! you're right

I should be using this pict
(the tip of the ruler has extra 0.5-0.6mm)
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Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2929456 01/02/20 03:44 PM
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The heavy resistance found at he back of the Casio PX S1000 keys, does it proportionally effect the play all along the key from the back to the middle to front of the key? Thus requiring more effort to play than say a Kawai ES110


Jazz piano Instructor. Technical Editor for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". Studied with Mark Levine, Art Lande & Mark Isham (1981-1990). Also: Barry Harris and Monty Alexander (1993-present)
Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2929608 01/03/20 12:40 AM
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Kawai ES100 = 21cm ?
Kawai ES110 = 20 cm?

Found this on another forum ("keyboard corner")

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Jazz piano Instructor. Technical Editor for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". Studied with Mark Levine, Art Lande & Mark Isham (1981-1990). Also: Barry Harris and Monty Alexander (1993-present)
Re: Key pivot length
RinTin #2929623 01/03/20 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rintincop

Kawai ES100 = 21cm ?
Kawai ES110 = 20 cm?



I think something like that, ES110 maybe even few milimeters less, about 19,5 cm. They're different actions. Just google for the side view photos.
ES100 AHA-IV http://basement-store.pl/tomek/imgAHAIVFactionlabels-1473439537197.png
ES110 RH-C http://www.muzykuj.com/ufiles/image/Kawai/es110_1_1074.jpg

In ES100, pivot point is farther in back of the key.


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Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2929645 01/03/20 05:08 AM
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There are recent posts in that thread that indicate the pivot points were not directly measured; the guy used extrapolation instead (triangulation between key pressed and in rest, if I understood it right). So some values may not be accurate.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Key pivot length
RinTin #2929648 01/03/20 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rintincop
The heavy resistance found at he back of the Casio PX S1000 keys, does it proportionally effect the play all along the key from the back to the middle to front of the key? Thus requiring more effort to play than say a Kawai ES110


No. The shorter the lever, the lower the leverage as you move in towards the fallboard. It's the difference in leverage across the playable area that's relevant.

Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2929649 01/03/20 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by EVC2017
There are recent posts in that thread that indicate the pivot points were not directly measured; the guy used extrapolation instead (triangulation between key pressed and in rest, if I understood it right). So some values may not be accurate.


Yes, I pointed this out to the thread’s OP also (while still praising his efforts to collate objectively comparable data.

The fact that this test resulted in different key pivot lengths for the Kawai ES8 and MP7SE, despite both instruments using exactly the same RHIII keyboard action, suggestions the measuring method may not be 100% reliable.

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Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2929652 01/03/20 05:33 AM
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There's also a different measurement for the Roland FP90 and RD2000 even though they use the same action.

Re: Key pivot length
johnstaf #2929654 01/03/20 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rintincop
The heavy resistance found at he back of the Casio PX S1000 keys, does it proportionally effect the play all along the key from the back to the middle to front of the key? Thus requiring more effort to play than say a Kawai ES110


No. The shorter the lever, the lower the leverage as you move in towards the fallboard. It's the difference in leverage across the playable area that's relevant.


I should say that the difference is already apparent by mid-key on some actions. At the front of the key it doesn't matter.

Re: Key pivot length
johnstaf #2929687 01/03/20 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by rintincop
The heavy resistance found at he back of the Casio PX S1000 keys, does it proportionally effect the play all along the key from the back to the middle to front of the key? Thus requiring more effort to play than say a Kawai ES110


No. The shorter the lever, the lower the leverage as you move in towards the fallboard. It's the difference in leverage across the playable area that's relevant.


I should say that the difference is already apparent by mid-key on some actions. At the front of the key it doesn't matter.


True. But even when the middle of the key is used, the lower leverage results in a corresponding increased audio response, so . . . .it doesn't matter!

Aren't y'all lucky to have someone with such indisputable logic? smile


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Re: Key pivot length
Kawai James #2930109 01/04/20 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James


The fact that this test resulted in different key pivot lengths for the Kawai ES8 and MP7SE, despite both instruments using exactly the same RHIII keyboard action, suggestions the measuring method may not be 100% reliable.


Yeah. You are way too nice. I would disregard that chart all together.

Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2930163 01/04/20 02:12 PM
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Altogether, even the downweights and the up weights?


Jazz piano Instructor. Technical Editor for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". Studied with Mark Levine, Art Lande & Mark Isham (1981-1990). Also: Barry Harris and Monty Alexander (1993-present)
Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2930165 01/04/20 02:18 PM
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This is not only a digital piano thing. Quite a lot of acoustic pianos (including some at my college) are stiff to play near the fallboard.

So it's not bad practice to get used to pianos like this, rather than avoiding them.

Last edited by 3am_stargazing; 01/04/20 02:18 PM.

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Re: Key pivot length
3am_stargazing #2930167 01/04/20 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
This is not only a digital piano thing. Quite a lot of acoustic pianos (including some at my college) are stiff to play near the fallboard.

So it's not bad practice to get used to pianos like this, rather than avoiding them.


This can definitely be the case for uprights. Most grands I've seen have fairly long pivot lengths (in comparison to digital actions) so I imagine it's less of an issue (and more of a full key downweight/friction issue).

I agree it's good practice to get used to difficult actions, IF one of your goals is to have transferable skills. You'll find that some pianists here have no interest/intention of ever playing publicly or on a piano other than their own, so for them there's little incentive/value in acclimating to non-ideal conditions.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Key pivot length
Gombessa #2930235 01/04/20 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
This is not only a digital piano thing. Quite a lot of acoustic pianos (including some at my college) are stiff to play near the fallboard.

So it's not bad practice to get used to pianos like this, rather than avoiding them.


This can definitely be the case for uprights. Most grands I've seen have fairly long pivot lengths (in comparison to digital actions) so I imagine it's less of an issue (and more of a full key downweight/friction issue).

I agree it's good practice to get used to difficult actions, IF one of your goals is to have transferable skills. You'll find that some pianists here have no interest/intention of ever playing publicly or on a piano other than their own, so for them there's little incentive/value in acclimating to non-ideal conditions.

That's true - people have different priorities and it's fine.

I don't agree when people are implying such pianos have a "flaw" (i.e. something experienced negatively in a universal way for all players).

I often play pianos (both acoustic and digital) with stiff keys near the fallboard. I just adapt to apply more weight when playing near the fallboard. Personally, I don't see this as a particularly bad thing and enjoy practicing on different actions.

Last edited by 3am_stargazing; 01/04/20 05:42 PM.

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Re: Key pivot length
3am_stargazing #2930357 01/05/20 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing

I don't agree when people are implying such pianos have a "flaw" (i.e. something experienced negatively in a universal way for all players).

I often play pianos (both acoustic and digital) with stiff keys near the fallboard. I just adapt to apply more weight when playing near the fallboard. Personally, I don't see this as a particularly bad thing and enjoy practicing on different actions.


In some digitals, playing black keys is very uncofortable, for instance try Chopin op 66 in a Kawai with RH action or in a low end Privia... specially in fast sections dynamics and control of playing becomes much harder than it should.

In my opinion it is a flaw since in any video or brochure by the manufacturers they say things like "the weight / feel matches the weight / feel of a grand piano".


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Key pivot length
3am_stargazing #2930378 01/05/20 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing

I often play pianos (both acoustic and digital) with stiff keys near the fallboard. I just adapt to apply more weight when playing near the fallboard. Personally, I don't see this as a particularly bad thing and enjoy practicing on different actions.


Personally i do see it as a bad thing, and just bad, cheap, or space saving production.

My yamaha cp33 really tends to mess up my playing when i need to play near the fallboard, where my yamaha u3 does not, it's action is miles ahead of the cp33 to me. (And i even modified the cp33, reduced the weight of the hammers, so originally the problem was even worse.)

Then again i thought myself how to play, never had a lesson.

Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2930392 01/05/20 06:41 AM
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I find short pivots frustrating. I want to be able to hear the pieces I play played how I like to hear them.

For example in Schumann's Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen in the second measure even with a long pivot I still find a couple of notes hard to control how I would like. This is not exactly a difficult piece.

The right hand starts with the fifth finger on F#5 and this is held while playing F#4 and then shortly after E5 and then D5 are played. The E5 and D5 are inevitably played near the fallboard (between 2 and 3 cm away) and on my MP11SE I still find that getting these two notes to sound how I want is hard. The MP11SE has a pivot length of 24 cm compared to say many Casio models of 18cm or less. Playing with the desired regulation on the MP11SE is a lot easier than on the Casio's but it still requires a sensitivity of touch that I don't yet have.

Why make myself listen to harsh sounds or ghost notes unnecessarily when practising pieces that have patterns like this. Practising is a whole lot more pleasant when you can produce something close to the sound you want.

I suppose over many years with the necessary practise I will gain enough control that I could deal with this scenario more easily. But I'm impatient and I can't see learning on a keyboard with a longer pivot is going to harm my technique.

Last edited by KevinM; 01/05/20 06:43 AM.
Re: Key pivot length
KevinM #2931446 01/07/20 10:46 PM
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Quote

I try not to but I end up playing near the fallboard regularly.

Whether or not you play close to the fall board should be determined by what music you are playing, not the piano you are playing. When you are playing primarily on the black keys, hands close to the fall board is proper technique.

Key pivot length is a major consideration, but not the only one that determines the responsiveness of the action for this. Acoustic uprights of reasonable quality have never been a problem for me in this regard.


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