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Yes Bill, and even if they could, why would they and lose all the color characteristics inherent in a well done UT? Same reason we would not tune a piano intended for modern jazz in a 1799 Thomas Young style temperament with 4bps CE 3rd. We would be condemned.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
... We really do not know exactly which temperaments either Bach or Mozart used because they did not write anything about that...


Could it be that the specific choice of the temperament was not that important for them. Why do we think that it was important to them?

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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Yes Bill, and even if they could, why would they and lose all the color characteristics inherent in a well done UT? Same reason we would not tune a piano intended for modern jazz in a 1799 Thomas Young style temperament with 4bps CE 3rd. We would be condemned.

Pwg


Greetings,
Not quite. I have a customer who not only is an accomplished Scarlatti/Bach player, but also an "out there" jazz player when he is not on the road as keyboard man for a major, major, vocal group. He hates ET for the blandness, (which others call "evenness" and love). His jazz stuff follow his tonal instincts and he finds more resources for invention with an unequal tuning. He knows where to look. On the other hand, I have seen pianists of many years experience and scant moments of awareness not even recognize they were playing a fully tuned Young temperament, (which has a 6 cent C-E, beating slightly over 1 bps in the middle of the piano). It is not only important how a temperament sounds under our examination, but just as importantly, how it makes the instruments response "feel" to the pianist, since that is going to determine how they produce their version of the music. Some piano players are oblivious to the actual soundscape they are producing and no temperament "resources" are going to be available to inform their playing.
Regards,

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Well Ed,

I would not have predicted that, but in rethinking it, if the pianist has the knowledge as well as the ability to play a tune in whatever key they feel like, I can see how it could work. Cool.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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It's most refreshing to see the very interesting and open minded thoughts in this thread.

Best wishes

David P


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnTDkj5dYYc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wdMbiOlw9s might be helpful contributions to this conversation. Both use the same tuning, a variation of Kellner. At 2:01:16 in the first video is a young lad playing Bach and then a demonstration of how that Yamaha C7 behaved when tuned in the historic tuning, just as Joe80 above reported could only be done with the historic instrument.

Meanwhile here's an 1819 Broadwood in the same tuning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKxpJdvgoCQ and in Kirnberger III https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjPDefnPQNU and an 1802 Stodart in Meantone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV0bkcSr_Kg

Best wishes

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I thought this was interesting:

Originally Posted by http://www.flutehistory.com/Resources/Documents/MozartTromlitzFlute.php3

At the same time as Tromlitz was developing a flute that made Quantz's tuning system so much more practically achievable, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-1791) was teaching the same theoretical framework to an English composition pupil in Vienna. Thomas Attwood's lessons in theory and thorough-bass took place from 1785 to about the beginning of 1787. Among the details in Attwood's notes that are written in Mozart's hand are chromatic scales with enharmonic equivalents showing large and small semitones, and the sizes of intervals as the sum of whole tones and differently-sized semitones. Mozart himself made corrections to other material that appears in Attwood's hand, which John Hind Chesnut discussed in an important article in 1977.16 Chesnut concluded that Mozart taught Attwood the same rules of tonality and intonation as the ones in practical manuals for performance by Tosi, Quantz, Leopold Mozart, Tromlitz, and others. He concluded: "Modern intonation practice is not appropriate if our goal is to play Mozart's music as he himself wanted it played."


http://www.flutehistory.com/Resources/Documents/MozartTromlitzFlute.php3

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I would add that the reason I was looking up the history of flutes to see if it might shed light on the question is that a piano concerto is played with orchestra, and it seems that a flute would be the instrument in an orchestra in Mozart’s time that would be most constrained in its temperament by design. I’m not a flute player, so I don’t know how much tonal control could have been employed by partially covering holes (flutes were made of wood then) or use of different embouchures. Seems that one could raise a pitch with a hole not fully covered but not lower it.

Horns in Mozart’s orchestra would not have had valves so tonal variety had to be managed by cupping in the bell and by embouchure. String players are of course only limited in temperaments in which they can play by any limits to their skills.

The piano could be tuned as needed.

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
it might shed light on the question is that a piano concerto is played with orchestra, and it seems that a flute would be the instrument in an orchestra in Mozart’s time that would be most constrained in its temperament by design. <snip>

The piano could be tuned as needed.


Greetings,
It has been my experience that all fixed pitch instruments have more than enough pitch flexibility to make the small deviations on a keyboard's temperament a moot point, as far as pitch is concerned. Oboe's may be the narrowest range, but even so, it is rare that even they are always exact. Flutes are easily bent around pitches if the players has control of the embouchure and we can make a dramatic difference in temperament with less than 4 cents deviation from ET. I haven't encountered a problem with UT tuning and concerto performances, but I have heard audiences respond to WT piano used in a Mozart concerto and it was unanimously positive.
Regards

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I would add that the reason I was looking up the history of flutes to see if it might shed light on the question is that a piano concerto is played with orchestra, and it seems that a flute would be the instrument in an orchestra in Mozart’s time that would be most constrained in its temperament by design. I’m not a flute player, so I don’t know how much tonal control could have been employed by partially covering holes (flutes were made of wood then) or use of different embouchures. Seems that one could raise a pitch with a hole not fully covered but not lower it.

Published flute/recorder fingering tables of that era show distinct fingerings for flats and sharps.

Kees

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