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How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
#2929178 01/01/20 10:35 PM
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Weiyan Offline OP
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I will be interviewed by a major local TV business channel. I am a big fans of Verituner and TuneLab. Using ETDs is original sin in my city. The most popular propaganda is "piano is for ear, so, no electronics.... ". Any powerful keywords to break viewers' wrong believe?

Last edited by Weiyan; 01/01/20 10:37 PM.

Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2929196 01/01/20 11:18 PM
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Do you need to see it as an opportunity to convince people? Also, most people are more receptive if you try and communicate that you understand them before challenging them, and sometimes a seemingly passive challenge can be more effective than a direct one.

If you wanted to say something positive about ETD’s then maybe you could take the angle that they’ve come a long way and they can be very sophisticated. You could appease the ‘city’ and compliment very fine aural tunings, not try and and compete from that angle, but rather focus on things ETD’s can do more easily such as one-pass pitch raises. Perhaps casually mention some more technical aspects, such as how they can calculate inharmonicity into the tuning to produce an end result more like a fine aural tuning.

My feeling is that if you go on the offensive that you’ll be tuned out... smile

Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2929199 01/01/20 11:35 PM
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Learn to tune by ear. The ear is the final judge.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
P W Grey #2929205 01/02/20 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Learn to tune by ear. The ear is the final judge.

Pwg

Totally agree. Most people here think that when you use ETD, your ear suck!


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2929208 01/02/20 12:20 AM
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Is tuning method a topic that will come up?

What is your goal... to provide helpful information and be viewed as one of the experts or to change people's opinions about the use of electronic tuning aids? It may be that you have to choose one.

If the first is your goal, in my opinion, you'd be better off using the limited time to talk about how many tuners neglect voicing and regulation, but the tone and responsiveness of the piano are essential areas of piano service. You could offer a different value proposition than the "tune and run" folk.

If you want to address use of electronic aids (or the interviewer brings it up) you can say things like:
"Many top technicians in the USA use tuning aids -- including university technicians and those serving demanding clients.
"Tuning aids have improved dramatically since the first ones came on the scene about 70 years ago.
"Tuning aids help provide historical temperaments for those who might like to explore other musical perspectives.

This is a great opportunity for you to be viewed as a local expert by providing worthwhile information. I hope it goes well for you.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2929229 01/02/20 03:43 AM
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Not only tuning apps have come a long way, the mobile devices have advanced too.
You might talk about the accuracy and repeatability that tuning apps provide.
You might also talk about historical temperaments, quick pitch raises, voicing aids.
You might tell that some tuning apps can set a more precise temperament.

Finally you might add that a tuning app is just another tool that the tuner can use but the tuner is mainly responsible for the quality of the tuning.

Last edited by Hakki; 01/02/20 03:50 AM.
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2929249 01/02/20 05:17 AM
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Thank you all for the help.

All suggestions are so helpful, but I think this one is most powerful:

"Many top technicians in the USA use tuning aids -- including university technicians and those serving demanding clients.
"Tuning aids have improved dramatically since the first ones came on the scene about 70 years ago.
"Tuning aids help provide historical temperaments for those who might like to explore other musical perspectives."
and the "one pass pitch raising", and "the year is final judge".

No body understand those complicate technical jargons.

Thanks!


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Hakki #2929250 01/02/20 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Not only tuning apps have come a long way, the mobile devices have advanced too.
You might talk about the accuracy and repeatability that tuning apps provide.
You might also talk about historical temperaments, quick pitch raises, voicing aids.
You might tell that some tuning apps can set a more precise temperament.

Finally you might add that a tuning app is just another tool that the tuner can use but the tuner is mainly responsible for the quality of the tuning.

Yes. The cell phone process is powerful than the mini computer in my college days. Use an advanced ETD can free up prciscious time to perform other services.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2929297 01/02/20 08:39 AM
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Just as the medical field has been able to use technology to better diagnose and treat the human body, digital electronic tuning devices continue to develop to help bring beautiful tunings to a wide variety of pianos.

Ron Koval

Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2929408 01/02/20 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Weiyan
All suggestions are so helpful, but I think this one is most powerful:

"Many top technicians in the USA use tuning aids -- including university technicians and those serving demanding clients.
"Tuning aids have improved dramatically since the first ones came on the scene about 70 years ago.
"Tuning aids help provide historical temperaments for those who might like to explore other musical perspectives.’


It sounds like you want to try and convince people. I thought kembrook’s perspective was helpful, especially: “This is a great opportunity for you to be viewed as a local expert by providing worthwhile information.” If you go on the offensive it’s not likely that people will see you as an expert.

I’d suggest you stay away from a sense of competition between aural technicians and ETD’s and rather discuss ways you feel they can assist the technician (without the implication that aural tuners are somehow deficient).

I say these things because I’m an aural tuner and if I saw an interview with someone claiming the superiority of ETD’s I would feel like their perspective discredits them. And I’m well aware of what they can do. And I’m also someone who would probably use an ETD if I were having to tune difficult pianos every day.

Last edited by jsilva; 01/02/20 01:12 PM.
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2929427 01/02/20 02:18 PM
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I read the original post again. Weiyan - If what you say is not an exaggeration, that ETA's are considered "original sin" then you may have an impossible task ahead of you. You've gotten some good advice here already. I especially agree that you should try and not make it a competition. Make no excuses and present the way you tune. Even aural tuners all tune a different way and ETA tuners are no different. This is simply another way to tune a piano.

One thought if you are challenged: I don't know how you tune but I suspect you have some aural checks you do when you are done, even if they are simply checking octaves and unisons (these are my basic aural checks). If you play piano you might play a song or two to make sure the piano sounds good because, yes, the ear is the final judge. So, assure people that you do indeed check the piano aurally.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
RonTuner #2929428 01/02/20 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Just as the medical field has been able to use technology to better diagnose and treat the human body, digital electronic tuning devices continue to develop to help bring beautiful tunings to a wide variety of pianos.

Ron Koval


Yes! thumb


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2929527 01/02/20 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Weiyan
I will be interviewed by a major local TV business channel. I am a big fans of Verituner and TuneLab. Using ETDs is original sin in my city. The most popular propaganda is "piano is for ear, so, no electronics.... ". Any powerful keywords to break viewers' wrong believe?

Greetings,
Talk is cheap. If your chops are performance level, and you are backed up by a VT, I don't think there are many aural tuners that will be able to surpass your results. So, put your money where your mouth is and simply tell them that you believe your tunings will be found superior to the aural only guys and dare them to prove you wrong. I know, I know, the ear is the final judge, but when it comes to accurately stretching out a VERY equal temperament, I have seen perhaps four or five tuners in my career that came close to what a VT can produce. One was Bill Garlick, another was Gerald Smith, and David Betts at the North Bennett Street School. There are others, but they are few and far between.

One thing you cannot trust to a machine is the unisons. If they are done strictly by machine, there will be a certain number of them that are not like the others, so you have to use your aural ability on them.

Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Ed Foote #2929730 01/03/20 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
...when it comes to accurately stretching out a VERY equal temperament, I have seen perhaps four or five tuners in my career that came close to what a VT can produce.


I’m curious about this statement. What measuring ‘device’ or standard are you using to determine that the VT usually does a better job in terms of final musical quality? And in what way can it be shown to be better than alternatives (assuming the aural tuner in question with an alternative approach has a specific goal they are skilled enough to accomplish).

Of course there are aural tuners who are not very good, but there are many different approaches. Many years ago when I participated on the PTG listserv I heard from different technicians their different approaches to tuning (not mechanical, but how and why they set intervals). Some thought very thoroughly about their ideas and gave intelligent explanations. I wouldn’t tune in those ways because I prefer a different sound but I respect them. I’m not sure that whether or not their beliefs about stretching match VT’s would make me think better or worse of their tunings.

Last edited by jsilva; 01/03/20 10:38 AM.
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Ed Foote #2929751 01/03/20 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
=====SNIP====
Talk is cheap. If your chops are performance level, and you are backed up by a VT, I don't think there are many aural tuners that will be able to surpass your results. So, put your money where your mouth is and simply tell them that you believe your tunings will be found superior to the aural only guys and dare them to prove you wrong. I know, I know, the ear is the final judge, but when it comes to accurately stretching out a VERY equal temperament, I have seen perhaps four or five tuners in my career that came close to what a VT can produce. One was Bill Garlick, another was Gerald Smith, and David Betts at the North Bennett Street School. There are others, but they are few and far between.

One thing you cannot trust to a machine is the unisons. If they are done strictly by machine, there will be a certain number of them that are not like the others, so you have to use your aural ability on them.


To Ed's points: I was fortunate to play a house concert on Bill Garlick's own Steinway A-3. It was an amazing experience. The unisons were SO perfect, that the ringing of the thirds became distracting. As to regulation and voicing - the man was incredibly good.

Regarding unsions: as a professional pianist, amateur technician, I use an ETD - a 1st Generation Sanderson Acu-Tuner with a S/N around 2200 (I'm not in the studio to check it just now). It helps me set the temperament accurately, though I do check the 3rds aurally to verify that things haven't slipped. While I use the ETD to help me with some things, I really do check other things aurally. Unisons, in particular, are not THAT easy to tune with the Acu-Tuner display - they may be easier with others, but I find with the Acu-Tuner that careful listening really is necessary. Ditto on Stretch. The Acu-Tuner does the heavy lifting of calculating the curve, but... I still have to like the sound, and may adjust slightly up or down depending.

So... it's ETD assisted tuning. Maybe that's a way to tell it.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
I Make Music that Lifts People Up & Brings Them Together
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
jsilva #2929814 01/03/20 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jsilva
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
...when it comes to accurately stretching out a VERY equal temperament, I have seen perhaps four or five tuners in my career that came close to what a VT can produce.


I’m curious about this statement. What measuring ‘device’ or standard are you using to determine that the VT usually does a better job in terms of final musical quality? And in what way can it be shown to be better than alternatives (assuming the aural tuner in question with an alternative approach has a specific goal they are skilled enough to accomplish).
.


Greetings,
I take the "final musical quality" to be measured by the resonance of the frequencies we leave, as tuners. Admittedly, it is not a finite term because of the subjective nature of our impressions of what we hear. However, "congruence" is something that can be measured when we begin to combine frequencies that are octaves apart. I am using congruence to describe the result of pitches that reinforce rather than cancel, their respective acoustic energy. In simple terms, how even are the triple octaves, and how much damage did the thirds, or minor thirds, or fourths have to suffer to make them so resonant and clear? The "musical quality" of a tuning is, to me, the clarity that comes from consistency,(mainly the thirds) which gives all like intervals the same identity, and congruence, which promotes resonance and resists dissonance. This is particularly true of the octave, where the span of the piano provides an interplay between the high partials of the bass notes with the fundamental of the upper registers. Width matters, and I consider it a higher musical quality when their widths are aligned from top to bottom. An ETD will give me a number for the results my ear reaches, and that number is a valuable piece of information, since machine is a tool that will not only measure these values, but store them for future use and possible refinement.


The ability to know where the fourth partial of a note is, and how it's relationship to the fundamental of a note 2 octaves above is a simple aural measurement. After tempering, (another facet to this discussion), the ability to continue consistently extrapolating the octaves to A1 and C88 without getting too far from the center of the octave "pipeline" is a rare ability. Aurally, we tend to wander from piano to piano, even if we always stay within bounds. We can measure any tuning to determine how alike the intervals are, Also, to see how consistent the fifth is tempered across the board, as well as octaves and others. This ability to see, with time, how our relationships are forming, is also the ability to gain greater control of what we do, stretch wise. That we can re-create the exact same thing on the piano next time lets us critique ourselves in ways we can't do by successive aural efforts, and I think that helps me approach a higher musical quality.

I am on record, literally and figuratively demonstrating alternate approaches to tuning. In that realm, the programmable SAT allows a consistency in what are interpretive areas of tempering. This allows all the critique to focus on the same artifact. However, I have far less tolerance for looseness in equality in an equal temperament, and the exactitude of the equal-ness is one of those things that make some of us dance with angels on pins. In clinical settings, I have seen tuners, a minority so far, that can stop the lights on a ETD that has been programmed for a particular scale. When the piano is flat or sharp by say, 4 cents in places, and you are tuning it for money, a better musical quality will follow the machine, every time. At least, that is what I have observed. this is because I have never seen anyone, myself included, that can accurately make accommodations in the sub-cent range to counteract the off-pitch areas as we go through them, so that discrepancy show up in the final tuning. Again, I see that as a loss of musical quality in the pedestrian world of non-performance work.
Regards,

Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
That Guy #2930310 01/04/20 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by That Guy
I read the original post again. Weiyan - If what you say is not an exaggeration, that ETA's are considered "original sin" then you may have an impossible task ahead of you. You've gotten some good advice here already. I especially agree that you should try and not make it a competition. Make no excuses and present the way you tune. Even aural tuners all tune a different way and ETA tuners are no different. This is simply another way to tune a piano.

One thought if you are challenged: I don't know how you tune but I suspect you have some aural checks you do when you are done, even if they are simply checking octaves and unisons (these are my basic aural checks). If you play piano you might play a song or two to make sure the piano sounds good because, yes, the ear is the final judge. So, assure people that you do indeed check the piano aurally.

So true. I have aural check routine indifference from pure aural tuning and usually correct some low bass. I don't want to mislead some potential new tuners think that buying an App and learn to open the piano become a pro tuner.

I think the program interest in business side rather than technical. Big challenge. Possible put me in confrontation with most in business tuners. 45 minutes service, this is the standard of a major piano dealer. HK$300/per year(USD38), for a town hall piano. What do you expect?


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2930316 01/04/20 11:02 PM
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Thanks friends here again. Every time I post something here and learn a lot more than I expect.

For better communication, I post a PRO tuners demonstration here:


Last edited by Weiyan; 01/04/20 11:03 PM.

Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2930416 01/05/20 08:36 AM
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Interesting that he does unisons-as-you-go rather than strip muting. Unisons-as-you-go is more common in the UK. And he uses two Papps mutes. He doesn't listen very long into the decay before moving on. It's probably a fault of mine that I linger too long listening to the decay.

It would have been really nice to hear a full piece being played at the end, to get a better idea of the overall sound and the cleanness of the unisons.

Re: How to convince ETCs are capable in few words?
Weiyan #2930452 01/05/20 10:53 AM
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That video is 11 years old. He must have switched to using a tuning app by now.

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