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Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2929284 01/02/20 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf

Also arguing that women want Bach and Beethoven taken off the list in place for a female is a laughable fallacy of exaggeration, falsely representing the opponent's view, and false dichotomy. Surely some lesser known dude wouldn't even be missed from the main list to make room for women worthy of inclusion or of equal renown.


It seems those who are worried don't think much of the likes of Bach or Beethoven. They fear that their reputations are so fragile that a little highlighting of some female composers will threaten their reputation.

Last edited by KevinM; 01/02/20 07:53 AM.
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Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: KevinM] #2929288 01/02/20 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf

Also arguing that women want Bach and Beethoven taken off the list in place for a female is a laughable fallacy of exaggeration, falsely representing the opponent's view, and false dichotomy. Surely some lesser known dude wouldn't even be missed from the main list to make room for women worthy of inclusion or of equal renown.


It seems those who are worried don't think much of the likes of Bach or Beethoven. They fear that their reputations are so fragile that a little highlighting of some female composers will threaten their reputation.

Not at all. Bach and Beethoven will still be played, listened to and studied, regardless. No coercion necessary.

And to be honest I couldn't care less about what ABRSM or the other exam systems do.

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: johnstaf] #2929295 01/02/20 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
There's no shortage of almost unknown male composers on the ABRSM syllabus.

So what exactly is replacing them with almost unknown women composers supposed to accomplish? If they're unknown pre-inclusion there's obviously no guarantee they'll become any better known by being included.

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2929316 01/02/20 09:29 AM
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Maybe they could replace them with works by important female composers.


Last edited by johnstaf; 01/02/20 09:29 AM.
Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: johnstaf] #2929319 01/02/20 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Maybe they could replace them with works by important female composers.
Define "important'. Also I can't think of very many composers whose stature was increased by virtue of being included on a syllabus. It usually works the other way around.

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2929322 01/02/20 09:44 AM
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Why are we continuing this discussion? There are those who support more inclusion of female composers in lists and those that consider it unnecessary/counterproductive to varying degrees of vehemence. Not one opinion has softened after lengthy posts on both sides.

It reminds me of the “get a teacher; no, don’t get a teacher “threads. This can go on forever and nothing good will come of it. I suggest that any thoughts should be directed as a comment to the article or to the exam board.

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: rmns2bseen] #2929329 01/02/20 10:07 AM
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I don't know anything about the ABRSM etc syllabi...but could it be that there are piano pieces by relatively unknown male composers simply because those pieces might feature some facet of technique being graded? And interestingly enough there haven't been very many suggested ABRSM-ish (as I would imagine such a thing) specific compositions by female composers.

The discussion continued because someone had to issue forth a diatribe accusing dissenters of the usual political thoughtcrime.

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: rmns2bseen] #2929336 01/02/20 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
I don't know anything about the ABRSM etc syllabi...but could it be that there are piano pieces by relatively unknown male composers simply because those pieces might feature some facet of technique being graded? And interestingly enough there haven't been very many suggested ABRSM-ish (as I would imagine such a thing) specific compositions by female composers.

The discussion continued because someone had to issue forth a diatribe accusing dissenters of the usual political thoughtcrime.


Maybe others feel like I do; I see no reason to include possible female composers, the piece and the grade level here. We are not members of the board and this is more work than I plan to do for a PW thread.

There has been name calling on both sides; time to stop, isn’t it?


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Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2929442 01/02/20 03:10 PM
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I can't read this whole thread, but I think a lot of folks do not realize that until people actually started looking back at the past to recover works by women composers/artists/painters/writers, it was assumed that there weren't any (or hardly any). In fact, though, because women's productions were discouraged and suppressed for so long, much of their actual work has been unpublished or unrecognized--not because anyone actually assessed it and found it worthless on its merits, but simply because no one knew about it.

When I studied English literature back in the day (1970s), it was generally assumed that women before the time of, say, Jane Austen, didn't write. Now there is a substantial body of known writing by earlier women, largely recovered from manuscripts. The story is similar in music. Whether one likes these productions as well as the ones (largely by men) that we already knew about, it's a new body of knowledge and artistic production that has been brought to light. Who was recording the amazing works of Hildegarde of Bingen before the 1980s? the first recording I find listed is 1979, all the rest later, and this is not an accident.

I have no opinion one way or the other about what works should be included in the ABRSM syllabus. But those who don't want to see the gender bias in the traditional canon are just shutting their eyes to the obvious IMO.


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Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: jdw] #2929452 01/02/20 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jdw
I can't read this whole thread, but I think a lot of folks do not realize that until people actually started looking back at the past to recover works by women composers/artists/painters/writers, it was assumed that there weren't any (or hardly any). In fact, though, because women's productions were discouraged and suppressed for so long, much of their actual work has been unpublished or unrecognized--not because anyone actually assessed it and found it worthless on its merits, but simply because no one knew about it.

When I studied English literature back in the day (1970s), it was generally assumed that women before the time of, say, Jane Austen, didn't write. Now there is a substantial body of known writing by earlier women, largely recovered from manuscripts. The story is similar in music. Whether one likes these productions as well as the ones (largely by men) that we already knew about, it's a new body of knowledge and artistic production that has been brought to light. Who was recording the amazing works of Hildegarde of Bingen before the 1980s? the first recording I find listed is 1979, all the rest later, and this is not an accident.

I have no opinion one way or the other about what works should be included in the ABRSM syllabus. But those who don't want to see the gender bias in the traditional canon are just shutting their eyes to the obvious IMO.

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Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2929514 01/02/20 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by jdw
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Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2929515 01/02/20 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
We are not members of the board and this is more work than I plan to do for a PW thread.
I was under the impression that there was already a list of neglected composers that needed immediate urgent inclusion. I didn't realize it was going to take a lot of research.
Originally Posted by jdw
When I studied English literature back in the day (1970s), it was generally assumed that women before the time of, say, Jane Austen, didn't write. Now there is a substantial body of known writing by earlier women, largely recovered from manuscripts.
Which says absolutely nothing about the quality and study value of pre-Austen works, or whether we should dump, say, Andrew Marvell and Robert Herrick for them. All it says is that there were works by women. Cool.
Originally Posted by jdw
Who was recording the amazing works of Hildegarde of Bingen before the 1980s? the first recording I find listed is 1979, all the rest later, and this is not an accident.
Who was recording much of any medieval music before 1979? That would coincide with the approximate time that the early music movement took off.

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: rmns2bseen] #2929520 01/02/20 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by dogperson
We are not members of the board and this is more work than I plan to do for a PW thread.
I was under the impression that there was already a list of neglected composers that needed immediate urgent inclusion. I didn't realize it was going to take a lot of research.
Originally Posted by jdw
When I studied English literature back in the day (1970s), it was generally assumed that women before the time of, say, Jane Austen, didn't write. Now there is a substantial body of known writing by earlier women, largely recovered from manuscripts.
Which says absolutely nothing about the quality and study value of pre-Austen works, or whether we should dump, say, Andrew Marvell and Robert Herrick for them. All it says is that there were works by women. Cool.
Originally Posted by jdw
Who was recording the amazing works of Hildegarde of Bingen before the 1980s? the first recording I find listed is 1979, all the rest later, and this is not an accident.
Who was recording much of any medieval music before 1979? That would coincide with the approximate time that the early music movement took off.


Please. I did not state there were not lists of forgotten female composers worthy of consideration. I merely stated I would personally not list them, with the name of the score and the approximate grade level on this forum, as this should be directed to the exam board.


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Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2929522 01/02/20 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Please. I did not state there were not lists of forgotten female composers worthy of consideration. I merely stated I would personally not list them, with the name of the score and the approximate grade level on this forum, as this should be directed to the exam board.
Well then let's get down to the nitty gritty instead of glittering socio-political generalities. Grade level wouldn't be required. Composer name + work would be sufficient, along with maybe the names of some of the male composers and their works which have been unjustly included for so long, apparently.

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2929528 01/02/20 06:19 PM
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Or to put it another way:
Originally Posted by jdw
But those who don't want to see the gender bias in the traditional canon are just shutting their eyes to the obvious IMO.
Which composers' works in the "traditional canon" are there simply because the composer was a male?

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: rmns2bseen] #2929530 01/02/20 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by dogperson
Please. I did not state there were not lists of forgotten female composers worthy of consideration. I merely stated I would personally not list them, with the name of the score and the approximate grade level on this forum, as this should be directed to the exam board.
Well then let's get down to the nitty gritty instead of glittering socio-political generalities. Grade level wouldn't be required. Composer name + work would be sufficient, along with maybe the names of some of the male composers and their works which have been unjustly included for so long, apparently.


I’ve told you no politely several times. Do a little research yourself if you are truly interested. I’ve also stated several times that this thread is polarizing, but yet, you still try to persist. I frankly don’t care if you can’t think of any possibly worthy female composers. Keep on without me, as I’ve said multiple times.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2929532 01/02/20 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
I’ve told you no politely several times. Do a little research yourself if you are truly interested. I’ve also stated several times that this thread is polarizing, but yet, you still try to persist.
And I'll politely say that these threads don't all exist or not exist at your whim. You weren't required to read it and I'm not the one that resuscitated it. Varying opinions can be polarizing by definition. Otherwise my questions are answered well enough.

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: KevinM] #2929552 01/02/20 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by jdw
...

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Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2929581 01/02/20 09:28 PM
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From the comments on a Guardian article on the subject from 2012:
Quote
"...teachers at all levels should make an effort to use examples of music by women in the classroom; to promote composition as a living, breathing, utterly unisex profession. ..."

The thing is, if you play a kid Beethoven in one class, and then 'something by a woman because it's the right thing to do for equality purposes' in the next class, I'm not sure it's going to have the empowering outcome you desire.

Bingo.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/08/why-so-few-female-composers#comments

Re: Article: ABRSM gender imbalance claimed [Re: rmns2bseen] #2929629 01/03/20 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
I The discussion continued because someone had to issue forth a diatribe accusing dissenters of the usual political thoughtcrime.


Another oversimplification/misrepresentation of my argument. I never said anything about "political thoughtcrime". I called a spade a spade. The emperor isn't wearing any clothes and you foolishly deny the fact. If nearly half the syllabus had not a single man in it, I am certain you would be up in arms(rightfully so). That is an equivalent example to the state of affairs against women in the teaching materials and why they have a problem with it(again rightfully so in my opinion). Your arguments are worthy of ridicule and are extremely transparent. You are either wanting fairness or you are against it. Saying it is fair as it stands is laughable and obligates contempt from any enlightened decent person.

Yet again someone brought up replacing Bach and Beethoven from the syllabus. I looked into whether or not there was anyone proposing the removal of Bach or Beethoven from the syllabus and didn't find a single mention online of this. Color me shocked(sarcasm alert: I am not shocked). People need to give that fallacy a rest unless they find any actual evidence to support the claim.


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