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Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2924246 12/18/19 09:33 AM
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CianistAndPomposer Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CianistAndPomposer
...The people tested were (all IQ scores are -10% of the data already given above in my previous post):

[b]1 singer...

And you know a singer with an IQ of 60 then? So, are they? :
Quote
Educable, can learn to care for oneself, employable in routinized jobs but require supervision. Might live alone but do best in supervised settings. Immature but with adequate social adjustment, usually no obvious physical anomalies.


63.5, to be exact.

So, a notch above the described level, but not far off.

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Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: CianistAndPomposer] #2924254 12/18/19 09:46 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline OP
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Originally Posted by CianistAndPomposer
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CianistAndPomposer
...The people tested were (all IQ scores are -10% of the data already given above in my previous post):

[b]1 singer...
And you know a singer with an IQ of 60 then? So, are they? :
Quote
Educable, can learn to care for oneself, employable in routinized jobs but require supervision. Might live alone but do best in supervised settings. Immature but with adequate social adjustment, usually no obvious physical anomalies.
63.5, to be exact.

So, a notch above the described level, but not far off.

🤣🤣🤣


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Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2924457 12/18/19 05:41 PM
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Sibylle Offline
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Interesting, thanks for sharing. I'm with ye all on the skepticism about IQ tests. Generally I find that this stuff is all very good until one tries to generalise it. It's very very hard to standardise things like intelligence and musical aptitude - and especially things like a positive mindset. And then when I try to say something that's definitely true, I end up sounding so vague it's pointless.

So I shall go back to being silent (and feel intelligent while I practice wink )


Sibylle


"Not a shred of evidence exists in favour of the idea that life is serious." -Brendan Gill
Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: CianistAndPomposer] #2924571 12/19/19 02:00 AM
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Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by CianistAndPomposer
One of my piano teachers has said that of all the instruments, the piano requires the highest level of intelligence to progress and get to a high level. Several voices that need to be balanced with each other, plus the pedal work.

And I submit that playing the organ (at a virtuoso level) requires as much - if not more - intelligence and physical coordination since you are dealing with multiple keyboards, three staves of music requiring complicated finger and footwork and constantly changing registrations. Talk about multi-tasking !!

Quote
I put together a recommended IQ level needed to reach a high international standard in several instruments and disciplines, and also voice:

[b]Voice: IQ of 70
Choral conducting: 85
Composing (avant-garde, pure modernism): 88


Oh, come on. These skills require more than average intelligence to be performed at a high international standard.

You short change singers. What about professional opera singers who must memorize and perform hours of music in different languages, live with orchestra, interacting with other singers, remembering their stage directions, etc. while still controlling their natural physical instruments. That ain't for the faint hearted, and definitely not for the dumb.

Also - choral conductors usually conduct both choral and instrumental ensembles (Robert Shaw, Roger Wagner or Margaret Hillis for example) so why the significant intelligence gap between them and orchestral conductors?

Quote
Blown instruments: 123
Percussion: 128
Violin/viola: 130
Cello/double bass: 133


Cello, yes. Double bass, not so much. ha

Quote
Piano: 140
Conducting: 150
Composing (good music): 155


Whatever...….. grin


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Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2924681 12/19/19 10:51 AM
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johnstaf Offline
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I'm sure string players might argue that they need a highly developed ear, while pianists/typists don't. grin grin grin

Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2924682 12/19/19 10:53 AM
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Surprise, surprise, surprise!!!

Look at the people who compete in the amateur piano competitions. Most of the winners have very high education (Ph.D, MD, Lawyers, etc). These people can easily be concert pianists, but they do not follow their emotions. They follow their brains. Their education levels have a strong correlation with their success in the amateur competition arena.

Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2924796 12/19/19 04:14 PM
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I was shocked one day, walking past a large classroom while a "pre-piano" class was going on for 3 and 4 year olds, to hear my college piano teacher's voice over the rambunctious noises of children. I hadn't known that he taught such a class.

At my next lesson, I asked him about, what it was like. He said some kids were smart and bright and really understood what you were trying to teach them (clapping and moving in rhythm, singing, recognizing melodic patterns and tunes, etc.), and that others didn't catch on at all, were bad at everything, and never seemed to improve no matter what you did. So, fundamentally, intelligence and musical aptitude need to be in place, what we used to call "talent."

The question is do kids without aptitude ever have enough desire to overcome the lack of it, or do they give up, even with encouragement or "growth mindset"? In other words, does desire go hand in hand with the aptitude? (And this is aptitude for doing, making music, for playing, not listening and liking others doing music.)

In the end, it doesn't really matter. Kids give it a shot, lessons work out or not, and teachers probably can't afford to be too choosy. I always hate the old saw, "Would you rather have a more talented kid who doesn't practice or a less talented one who works harder?" Doesn't matter, most studios need both!


WhoDwaldi
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Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: WhoDwaldi] #2924856 12/19/19 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
I was shocked one day, walking past a large classroom while a "pre-piano" class was going on for 3 and 4 year olds, to hear my college piano teacher's voice over the rambunctious noises of children. I hadn't known that he taught such a class.

At my next lesson, I asked him about, what it was like. He said some kids were smart and bright and really understood what you were trying to teach them (clapping and moving in rhythm, singing, recognizing melodic patterns and tunes, etc.), and that others didn't catch on at all, were bad at everything, and never seemed to improve no matter what you did. So, fundamentally, intelligence and musical aptitude need to be in place, what we used to call "talent."
I think there could be many others reasons why a three or four year old wasn't doing well in such a class besides lack of intelligence or musical aptitude.

Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: pianoloverus] #2924860 12/19/19 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think there could be many others reasons why a three or four year old wasn't doing well in such a class besides lack of intelligence or musical aptitude.


😁 True!


WhoDwaldi
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Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2924861 12/19/19 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Surprise, surprise, surprise!!!

Look at the people who compete in the amateur piano competitions. Most of the winners have very high education (Ph.D, MD, Lawyers, etc). These people can easily be concert pianists, but they didn't study the piano seriously and with a teacher from an early age, and even later in lives, focused more on studying law and science to get their their Ph.D-s and MD-s, than they did on practicing.


I adjusted your post a little.


Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2924920 12/20/19 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Surprise, surprise, surprise!!!

Look at the people who compete in the amateur piano competitions. Most of the winners have very high education (Ph.D, MD, Lawyers, etc). These people can easily be concert pianists, but they do not follow their emotions. They follow their brains. Their education levels have a strong correlation with their success in the amateur competition arena.


How do you know they don't follow their emotions any less than professional pianists?

Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: johnstaf] #2924929 12/20/19 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Surprise, surprise, surprise!!!

Look at the people who compete in the amateur piano competitions. Most of the winners have very high education (Ph.D, MD, Lawyers, etc). These people can easily be concert pianists, but they do not follow their emotions. They follow their brains. Their education levels have a strong correlation with their success in the amateur competition arena.


How do you know they don't follow their emotions any less than professional pianists?


Maybe no one should speak for the emotions, training, experience and decisions of the participants other than the participants themselves.


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Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2924945 12/20/19 03:54 AM
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Playing with or without emotions...



Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: Animisha] #2924989 12/20/19 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Playing with or without emotions...




He can be a hoot sometimes.



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Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: CianistAndPomposer] #2925059 12/20/19 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CianistAndPomposer
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Surprise, surprise, surprise!!!

Look at the people who compete in the amateur piano competitions. Most of the winners have very high education (Ph.D, MD, Lawyers, etc). These people can easily be concert pianists, but they didn't study the piano seriously and with a teacher from an early age, and even later in lives, focused more on studying law and science to get their their Ph.D-s and MD-s, than they did on practicing.


I adjusted your post a little.



Actually, you are not correct. These people actually spent a lot of time studying with very good teacher when they were young (before college). Just they decided that piano won't bring enough money. They followed their brain not their emotion to study something that bring money to their families. Some, however, followed their emotion and getting doctored in piano performance. Most of those people do not make enough money. But who cares, as long as they are happy teaching piano or becoming a piano professor.

Re: Relationship of intelligence/music aptitude/growth mindset [Re: johnstaf] #2925063 12/20/19 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Surprise, surprise, surprise!!!

Look at the people who compete in the amateur piano competitions. Most of the winners have very high education (Ph.D, MD, Lawyers, etc). These people can easily be concert pianists, but they do not follow their emotions. They follow their brains. Their education levels have a strong correlation with their success in the amateur competition arena.


How do you know they don't follow their emotions any less than professional pianists?


What I mean was following their hearts.

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