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AI will "complete" Beethoven's 10th
#2922790 12/14/19 08:56 AM
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Of all the celebratory events planned to mark the grumpy & deaf (though he wasn't born grumpy or deaf) composer's 250th in 2020, this must be the most intriguing - or moronic -, depending on your point of view:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/cultur...s-beethovens-10th-symphony/#.XfTi5S2cY1I

Of course, there have been (partially) successful completions of great works - all by other composers of the same species (homo sapiens). Bach's The Art of Fugue, Mozart's Requiem (not just by Süssmayr), Mahler's 10th, Bruckner's 9th.... though not Schubert's Unfinished. But Luddy's 10th? - which he barely started?

That's why we need a robot's hand whistle. After all, there have been complete original works composed wholly by computer programs, which sound very convincing (e.g. a "Chopin Mazurka" by Mr. AI), and computers' crunching power can outplay any human at any mind game like chess, and even Go. So, why not feed into a program all of Luddy's music and just sit back and watch it churn out.........late Beethoven, even later than he ever envisaged in his wildest dreams?

I await the first performance of Beethoven's Symphony No.10 in ? major/minor next year in Bonn with bated breath.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: AI will "complete" Beethoven's 10th
bennevis #2922843 12/14/19 12:36 PM
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Interesting!!

Including because I never knew that Beethoven started a 10th!
(He did?)

BTW, a thing which is just as much a challenge as completing an unfinished work, actually I'd say more of one, although stupid ha .....is making up a 'replacement' movement when you think the one that the composer wrote wasn't a good idea. grin

When I first got acquainted with Brahms' 2nd Concerto, that's what I thought of the last movement, and I started imagining what it "should" be -- i.e. something to hit us over the head, rather than something subtle.

It was the idiocy of arrogant youth-hood. grin

Anyway, right now I'm working on a Clementi sonata of which I love the 1st movement but think the 2nd and 3rd are weak. I have half a mind to try to write new 2nd and 3rd movements.
Emphasis on "have half a mind." ha

Back to the subject: I'll be interested to take a look and listen to this Beethoven thing, but most of all, I'd be interested just to see what it is that we have of what Beethoven left for it. In fact I think it would be most interesting to see that FIRST, before seeing or hearing anything about the completion, so we ourselves could try to imagine what might have followed, without having our minds 'polluted' grin by what this AI came up with. (Once we hear that, it's hopeless to try to imagine what we would purely come up with.)

Thanks for posting this!

Re: AI will "complete" Beethoven's 10th
bennevis #2922853 12/14/19 12:58 PM
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......Seems like it wouldn't be easy, and maybe not really possible, to just hear what Beethoven himself wrote for it, because it's way too sketchy, too limited. I guess we could 'see' it, if we'd have some way to see images of the manuscripts, and maybe those will be made available, maybe they're available somewhere right now. But I think it would take someone much more knowledgeable (and talented) grin than me to get anywhere with those.

But: Here's a video on youtube where Barry Cooper, who has done what seems like a real good and very interesting completion, explains about the whole thing:



For anyone interested in this thing, that's well worth looking at. Unfortunately the video begins with what I guess is theme music for the show. I say "unfortunately" not just because it delays our seeing the real thing but because at first blush it seems like that music is the Beethoven, and it's very far from anything Beethoven. And then it's followed by some voice-over accompanied by Beethoven's 9th, and even though that whole first portion before getting to the real. thing is only a little more than half a minute, it feels like forever. ha
The real stuff starts at 0:54.

There are videos on youtube of performances of Cooper's completion.
It's beautiful.

Re: AI will "complete" Beethoven's 10th
Mark_C #2923048 12/15/19 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
......Seems like it wouldn't be easy, and maybe not really possible, to just hear what Beethoven himself wrote for it, because it's way too sketchy, too limited. I guess we could 'see' it, if we'd have some way to see images of the manuscripts, and maybe those will be made available, maybe they're available somewhere right now. But I think it would take someone much more knowledgeable (and talented) grin than me to get anywhere with those.

But: Here's a video on youtube where Barry Cooper, who has done what seems like a real good and very interesting completion, explains about the whole thing:



For anyone interested in this thing, that's well worth looking at. Unfortunately the video begins with what I guess is theme music for the show. I say "unfortunately" not just because it delays our seeing the real thing but because at first blush it seems like that music is the Beethoven, and it's very far from anything Beethoven. And then it's followed by some voice-over accompanied by Beethoven's 9th, and even though that whole first portion before getting to the real. thing is only a little more than half a minute, it feels like forever. ha
The real stuff starts at 0:54.

There are videos on youtube of performances of Cooper's completion.
It's beautiful.

Thanks for all that. I didn't know that a completion - and performances - of the first movement of the 10th had already been done, and performed in Britain.

Though as a fairly recent "elaboration" of a symphony (Anthony Payne's of Elgar's 3rd symphony) has become almost a mainstream work in the UK and frequently performed (and commercially recorded) by many orchestras, there is some precedent. However, Payne had 130 pages of sketches to work from, so he didn't need the help of a computer smirk .

I can't see how Beethoven's 10th - presumably in four movements - can be "elaborated" in anything like the same manner. Maybe the Germans have something extra up their collective sleeves.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

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