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NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard #2922780 12/14/19 07:41 AM
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Mr Jazz Man Offline OP
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I heard from my keyboard tech that roland will be coming out with a new rd4000 series to replace the rd2000. They received schematics for the new unit which will include SST seamless sound switching, touch display, 3000 sounds additional etc. Namm 2020 we shall see...

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Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Mr Jazz Man] #2922783 12/14/19 08:00 AM
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MacMacMac Offline
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What is SST ?
Is that seamless sound switching, as you wrote it?
Or is it seamless sound twitching? smile
Or something else?

Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Mr Jazz Man] #2922819 12/14/19 10:38 AM
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Bruce In Philly Offline
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Hard to believe there is a replacement so early in the RD-2000's lifecycle. Maybe a new uber, top-of-the-line, higher priced model?

Peace
Bruce in Philly


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Bruce in Philly
Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Mr Jazz Man] #2922827 12/14/19 11:04 AM
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GWILLY Offline
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Just jumped right over the RD-3000? LOL Hopefully they put Pianoteq in it.

Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: GWILLY] #2922865 12/14/19 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GWILLY
Just jumped right over the RD-3000? LOL Hopefully they put Pianoteq in it.


That'll please Mac . . . . . smile


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Mr Jazz Man] #2922887 12/14/19 02:24 PM
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MacMacMac Offline
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Why would Roland sully their good name by putting Pianoteq in it?

Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: GWILLY] #2922922 12/14/19 04:25 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by GWILLY
Just jumped right over the RD-3000? LOL Hopefully they put Pianoteq in it.

Roland has it's own modeled piano engine - PureAcoustic.


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Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2922947 12/14/19 06:35 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Roland has it's own modeled piano engine - PureAcoustic.


Well if you listen to Roland branding, they have *three* distinct fully modeled sound engines--SuperNatural, V-Piano, and PureAcoustic.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Mr Jazz Man] #2922979 12/14/19 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Jazz Man
I heard from my keyboard tech that roland will be coming out with a new rd4000 series to replace the rd2000. They received schematics for the new unit which will include SST seamless sound switching, touch display, 3000 sounds additional etc. Namm 2020 we shall see...


Out of those 3000 sounds, at least 2900 are in RD-2000. At least! So let's hope there are 10 new sounds in it.

The very interesting thing which is very common between Roland, Yamaha, Korg, etc is that the waverom always gets wasted by low-quality samples that have been sitting in these keyboards for ages! Some of them are historic, yes! From the '90s but the majority of them are useless and in my language: junk samples.

For example, Yamaha has put a new Seattle strings section in Montage, we still have the old low-quality string sections with poor sound compared to Seattle strings... Some of these can be used in cheezy songs from the '90s and early 2000.

There are also some techniques to improve the string sound by layering different samples but at the end of the day, these strings have not been initially sampled for professional usage. They are not separated by instrument type and are not created from the composer's perspective. That makes them sit below PC sampler VSTs with the same capabilities.

All these companies must slowly delete old and useless samples from their keyboard. Instead of naming ROM samples by silly names (Yamaha is the king in this department) they need to do it professionally. If Roland is including D-50 I want to see a section specifically saying it is from D-50.

I want to know the type of instrument they sampled, e.g. the guitar type, the pickup position... A neatly all notes sampled wind instruments etc. not half-ass samples of each.

This is 2020 and memory is cheap but still, they all brag about1-2 gigabytes samples in the keyboard.

At each iteration probably only 20% of samples are useful.

One of the reasons a keyboard like Kornos with crappy samples is so successful is the sound creation capabilities of this instrument and the quality you can achieve with it.

A sampler on its own is not much worth it if it comes with outdated samples. It either needs to have other synth engines or really good samples.

Yamaha Motif series was a success among many samplers of its time because it has the best sounding samples.

I hope if Roland has decided to come up with a new keyboard, they consider these points otherwise RD-2000 will be as boring as CP-88.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: MacMacMac] #2922996 12/14/19 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
What is SST ?
Is that seamless sound switching, as you wrote it?
Or is it seamless sound twitching? smile
Or something else?

On a Korg, it stands for Smooth Sound Transition. Roland has traditionally called this "patch remain" or "tone remain". It's been more common on Rolands than on Korgs, Yamahas, or Nords. The RD-2000 had this feature (for most of its sounds, but not the modeled piano).

Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: anotherscott] #2923000 12/14/19 10:49 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by anotherscott

On a Korg, it stands for Smooth Sound Transition. Roland has traditionally called this "patch remain" or "tone remain". It's been more common on Rolands than on Korgs, Yamahas, or Nords.


IIRC, it wasn't originally supported (for all sounds/engines) on the Kronos, and was added in a patch?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Mr Jazz Man] #2923069 12/15/19 09:15 AM
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Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Jazz Man
I heard from my keyboard tech that roland will be coming out with a new rd4000 series to replace the rd2000. They received schematics for the new unit which will include SST seamless sound switching, touch display, 3000 sounds additional etc. Namm 2020 we shall see...


This will only be exciting if they've fixed the major flaws that the RD2000 unit has:

1) Rubbish headphone amp
2) Inefficient sound selection UI
3) Too many low-quality patches.
4) Compressed dynamic range


1) Rubbish headphone amp

The Roland headphone output is probably their biggest flaw: what were they thinking (it's SuperCrap / PureCheap lol)!

Also, there is definitely something tangible to this binaural business that Roland need to compete with. I tried both the RD2000 (SuperNatural) and LX708 (PureAcoustic) recently: both had a sound quality (fidelity) issue in comparison to the binaural sampling on the Yamaha CLP685 i.e., that IMO retards Roland's competitiveness.

Roland really need to work on sound clarity through both speakers and headphones. Roland could try adding algorithms to their modelling so the sound-output takes more advantage of human Binaural perception. They could call the next gen sound engine BrilliantBinaural modeling---or they could go with PureBrilliant Binaural modeling if they continue with a penchant for sounding Glaswegian lol.


2) Inefficient sound selection UI & 3) Too many low-quality patches.

3000 sounds is not impressive: 150 great sounds is impressive. The challenge for Roland in their new RD series is to configure the sound selection interface to enable their best sounds to be most easily accessible (especially if they are going to include 3000 sounds). They might even consider retiring many of the old SN sounds that are well, dated to say the least.

Roland should IMO look at how other manufacturer's models like Dexibell (vivo S9) and Kawai MP7/11(SE) handle sound selection and copy that, because their current RD2000 interface is time-consuming and off-putting.

Further to this, Korg has 9 sound engines in the Kronos. Roland only have two sound engines, one of which seems mostly dated. I'd like to see maybe an FM sound engine, a modeled epiano engine and also better organs in the RD4000, as the RD2000 seemed to be a backward step compared to the RD800. With computing power being cheaper than ever and memory costing penuts, why can't we see manufacturers really work on sound quality---maybe splitting the unit into more sound engines. They can and should compete with VST's.


4) Compressed dynamic range

The other major problem with the RD2000 was the breadth of its dynamic range. The expressiveness within the dynamic range that the Roland modeled pianos have is excellent. The dynamic range itself seemed compressed. That and the low quality sound output makes it less competitive with the Kawai MP range.

Right now, I'm more interested in the new and very expensive Roland Fantom 8 which has the PHA50 plus the modelled piano. Still haven't tried the Fantom 8, so maybe it too has headphone amp issues. Maybe the RD4000 should have some fun added to it, like a D beam, some arpegiators etc. After all, it's going against some pretty good Nord's.


Afterthoughts:

Seamless sound switching is a nice feature, and Kawai/Yamaha should follow suit pretty soon; however, without the major issues being addressed, Roland won't be enticing me to replace my MP7..

IMO, it is a good job that Yamaha messed up on the CP88---by too tightly nicheing it for the live-market i.e., not including binaural sampling/string resonance etc, not including the NXW action, not quite competing with Nord's UI. If it were not for Yamaha's lack of vision/ambition with the CP88, the stage piano market as a whole (not just the live market niche) would be much more competitive than it is.

I don't find the Yamaha sampling more authentic (either in tone or sample quality), it's just outputting at a higher quality fidelity on the CLP685 (both headphones & speakers), so the overall experience is better.

I don't think Roland are the only one's behind Yamaha on the sound quality issue! Although Kawai have improved since the CA97 era models, Kawai still has lots of work to do on their sound output, especially through their speakers. For instance (although I feel harsh saying so), after playing the CA98 comparing it to the CLP685, I personally would opt for the ES8 or MP7SE/MP11SE instead (if going Kawai), and just add my own amplification.

To be fair to Kawai, this new collaboration with Onkyo is in its infancy, and they should definitely stick with it; also, I didn't get chance to test the NV5 or NV10, so I'm behind in testing Kawai's latest systems.

I think the acid test is for Kawai & Roland engineers should be to put their new models directly next to the latest Yamaha CLP model, play them both side-by-side, and withhold their new models from production until it sounds at least on-par with this binaural Yamaha output (sound-fidility wise). Whatever system within the Roland / Kawai cabinet models that is at fault, IMO, the sound fidelity for both speakers and headphone output is the largest area of potential improvement.

My take-home conclusion was that Yamaha had improved their sound fidelity quite a lot with the CLP685 via this binaural output, as clearly the CP88 samples showed the true quality of the CFX/Bosendorfer samples (only quite-to-very good, nothing outstanding).

Disclaimer: the store background noise was high, and I will retest these instruments in another store.

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: GWILLY] #2923073 12/15/19 09:22 AM
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Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by GWILLY
Just jumped right over the RD-3000? LOL Hopefully they put Pianoteq in it.


That would be like Apple choosing to add a Microsoft OS in all their new gear.

Roland don't need to add Pianoteq, they need to out-R&D their competitors by taking risks, aiming higher, and looking for revolutions as well as micro-evolutions in piano modelling design. Any manufacturer that sits on it's laurels in the current market is heading for growth sterility.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Gombessa] #2923081 12/15/19 09:36 AM
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Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Roland has it's own modeled piano engine - PureAcoustic.


Well if you listen to Roland branding, they have *three* distinct fully modeled sound engines--SuperNatural, V-Piano, and PureAcoustic.


Hi Gombessa,

In believe that for both the RD2000 & LX708, there are technically only two sound engines (i.e., different sound chips): with the modelling engine powering both SuperNatural piano algorithms (PureAcoustic piano in the LX708) and the V-piano algorithms in the RD2000.

I am wondering if the RD2000 v-piano algorithms are performing as well (on that modelling sound chip and processor) as those in the V-piano---I definitely enjoyed the V-piano more in testing.

Korg is using 9 sound engines in the Kronos. It seems to me that if Korg ever manage to release a competitive digital piano action, they will be a tough competitor for Yamaha, Kawai and Roland as things stand.

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Doug M.] #2923095 12/15/19 10:05 AM
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Pete14 Offline
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by GWILLY
Just jumped right over the RD-3000? LOL Hopefully they put Pianoteq in it.


That would be like Apple choosing to add a Microsoft OS in all their new gear.

Roland don't need to add Pianoteq, they need to out-R&D their competitors by taking risks, aiming higher, and looking for revolutions as well as micro-evolutions in piano modelling design. Any manufacturer that sits on it's laurels in the current market is heading for growth sterility.


Am I the only one who ‘got it’?: GWILLY was being sarcastic!

Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Gombessa] #2923099 12/15/19 10:32 AM
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anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by anotherscott

On a Korg, it stands for Smooth Sound Transition. Roland has traditionally called this "patch remain" or "tone remain". It's been more common on Rolands than on Korgs, Yamahas, or Nords.

IIRC, it wasn't originally supported (for all sounds/engines) on the Kronos, and was added in a patch?

No, SST was in Kronos from day one. Korg has made a number of useful enhancements in subsequent updates, though. The big one early on that you may be thinking of is that they added the ability to stream user samples from disk.

Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Pete14] #2923121 12/15/19 12:01 PM
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You and me, Pete, you and me.

Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Pete14] #2923140 12/15/19 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by GWILLY
Just jumped right over the RD-3000? LOL Hopefully they put Pianoteq in it.


That would be like Apple choosing to add a Microsoft OS in all their new gear.

Roland don't need to add Pianoteq, they need to out-R&D their competitors by taking risks, aiming higher, and looking for revolutions as well as micro-evolutions in piano modelling design. Any manufacturer that sits on it's laurels in the current market is heading for growth sterility.


Am I the only one who ‘got it’?: GWILLY was being sarcastic!


I would seriously benefit from a sarcasm emoticon crazy


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Doug M.] #2923145 12/15/19 01:11 PM
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Bruce In Philly Offline
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Originally Posted by Doug M.


This will only be exciting if they've fixed the major flaws that the RD2000 unit has:

1) Rubbish headphone amp
2) Inefficient sound selection UI
3) Too many low-quality patches.
4) Compressed dynamic range

Kind regards,
Doug.


+1 from a RD2000 owner.

I would like to see another set of old fashioned "line outs" at line level not affected by the volume control... the purest analog out possible.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 12/15/19 01:11 PM.

Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard [Re: Doug M.] #2923169 12/15/19 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
The Roland headphone output is probably their biggest flaw: what were they thinking (it's SuperCrap / PureCheap lol)!

Also, there is definitely something tangible to this binaural business that Roland need to compete with.
...
Yamaha messed up on the CP88---by too tightly nicheing it for the live-market i.e., not including binaural sampling/string resonance etc, not including the NXW action, not quite competing with Nord's UI.

I think the primary raison d'etre of the RD-2000 and CP88 is live performance, where binaural has no place (and even headphone use in general is minimal). In a way, it's like complaining that your sports car doesn't seat 6. The things are just built for different purposes. And I actually don't see the CP88 interface as uncompetitive with the Nord Piano, how do you think it doesn't measure up there?

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