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Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Chili_Time #2921634 12/10/19 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Chili_Time
If you're incredibly gifted everything just comes easily and naturally I suppose. I'm sure he would know what to do with a lead sheet that shows lyrics and what chord to play on his guitar over the lyrics. laugh

A lead sheet contains everything you need to play - and sing - a pop song: melody on a staff, lyrics and harmony. I've played from lead sheets lots of times, without ever having heard the songs before.

But you still need to be able to read one line of music - the melody. So, it's useless if you don't actually know the song and you can't read music....... whistle


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
EPW #2921652 12/10/19 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by EPW
I believe Michael Jackson didn't read music either.

Also Dolly Parton I thought also doesn't read music.


Neither does Barbra Streisand. She did pretty well, too
grin

Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
leel #2921658 12/10/19 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by leel
Originally Posted by EPW
I believe Michael Jackson didn't read music either.

Also Dolly Parton I thought also doesn't read music.


Neither does Barbra Streisand. She did pretty well, too
grin

Neither did Big Lucy, a.k.a. Luciano Pavarotti.

He did pretty well even in three-hour Puccini operas, so I hear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWc7vYjgnTs


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
bennevis #2921659 12/10/19 05:45 PM
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So I just got back from taking my RCM level 4 exam. The examiner is an employee of the Royal Conservatory in Toronto who had flown down to Washington DC just to administer the tests to the test takers these last 10 days. Since I was the last student (literally, of the year in this location!) I ended up chatting with the examiner after I was done. I mentioned to him this discussion we had in this thread and that I knew George Winston doesn't read music. And his comment was, "well George Winston has one thing that trumps all those traditional skills such as reading music - ENORMOUS TALENT!!! 🤣


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2921711 12/10/19 08:58 PM
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I don't find it surprising that someone can do a lot without being able to read music. I only find it odd that they refuse to learn. For these musicians, especially the ones on keyboard, learning how to read music should take no more than 10 minutes. It's just symbols representing what they're already familiar with. But somehow these people are resistant. They almost get emotional when asked to try. Do these people have the same trouble with algebra? Some aversion to assigning letters to things.

Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
wszxbcl #2921772 12/11/19 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by wszxbcl
I don't find it surprising that someone can do a lot without being able to read music. I only find it odd that they refuse to learn. For these musicians, especially the ones on keyboard, learning how to read music should take no more than 10 minutes. It's just symbols representing what they're already familiar with. But somehow these people are resistant. They almost get emotional when asked to try. Do these people have the same trouble with algebra? Some aversion to assigning letters to things.

Ah, that's the million dollar question!
I'm a beginner on the piano, but I can read music. I'm slow at it, sight reading takes forever, but I can take a note sheet and find the music on my piano, and I can write down a piece I know on a note sheet if I have to. Had I spent a little more time and energy on this, I would be much better.
These people are professionals, they make their living from music. They've spent decades doing it. And they can't be bothered learning 7 notes? Or spend a few minutes each day to learn something that would make their work easier?
I refuse to believe that every last one of them has 'note-dyslexia'.

Last edited by Jytte; 12/11/19 03:43 AM.

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Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2921782 12/11/19 04:36 AM
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Highly skilled original pop/rock bands usually play their own songs, with each member taking charge of their own part, so there's no reason to use written music.

Pop/rock musicians usually know the names of chords etc. so they're not musically ignorant.

In classical music, rhythm is usually easy to read (with some exceptions of course) until you get to the twentieth century.

Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2921784 12/11/19 04:46 AM
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when I am rich and famous I will be hiring an amanuensis to take away the drudgery of putting pen to paper smirk



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Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2921785 12/11/19 04:46 AM
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The interesting thing for me is that a number of well-known pop musicians have/had perfect/absolute pitch - Freddie Mercury, Michael Jackson, Mariah Carey, Jimi Hendrix, etc. etc. Short of having notation-dyslexia, they probably would have had an easier time picking up musical notation than the rest of us.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
johnstaf #2921789 12/11/19 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Highly skilled original pop/rock bands usually play their own songs, with each member taking charge of their own part, so there's no reason to use written music.

Pop/rock musicians usually know the names of chords etc. so they're not musically ignorant.

In classical music, rhythm is usually easy to read (with some exceptions of course) until you get to the twentieth century.

I never implied that they are ignorant, they are obviously very good at what they do, some are bloody brilliant, and I enjoy the music most of them play/sing. Like you said, they know the chords, that's part of basic musical understanding, and I just assumed being able to read simple notation was an equal part of the basics.


[Linked Image]XXXVII-XXXVIII
I pray, that tomorrow I may strive to be a little better than I am today - and, on behalf of everybody else, I give thanks for headphones.
Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2921795 12/11/19 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jytte

I never implied that they are ignorant, they are obviously very good at what they do, some are bloody brilliant, and I enjoy the music most of them play/sing.


I know you didn't. grin

Rock and classical people come at the instrument from different directions. Some people find the way rhythm is notated to be counter-intuitive. When you're learning an instrument and notation at the same time, that isn't going to be apparent.

Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2921797 12/11/19 05:36 AM
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Counter-intuitive? I don't quite understand that. As in, I don't see what you mean by that. Maybe because I'm seeing it from a different perspective? I actually looked at sheets before I touched a piano, trying to start to understand the theory of it.


[Linked Image]XXXVII-XXXVIII
I pray, that tomorrow I may strive to be a little better than I am today - and, on behalf of everybody else, I give thanks for headphones.
Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2921800 12/11/19 06:15 AM
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I learned to read and write musical notation when I was very young, probably before I could play decently. As others have implied, it is not difficult and provides easy access to such a huge amount of music that I cannot understand why anyone would not do it. Although I wrote out much music in earlier years my own problem with notation is that I find it next to impossible to find even reasonably approximate, clearly understandable representations of my improvisation, especially in regard to rhythm. As digital recording devices are now of such high quality I therefore see little point in such a time consuming battle in case someone, somewhere might want to play it; a highly unlikely occurrence I would say. That aside, for the sake of a few weeks effort at most, I cannot understand why anyone would not want to be able to read music.


"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
wszxbcl #2921801 12/11/19 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by wszxbcl
For these musicians, especially the ones on keyboard, learning how to read music should take no more than 10 minutes.

Oh no. Way, way longer. There is simply no connection yet between what they see and the music they know so well. It would probably take ages to learn, especially when they are no longer young.
Imagine we would learn braille. It would take forever, even though we all speak and read.


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Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Tyrone Slothrop #2921803 12/11/19 07:03 AM
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Writing music down in notation is about passing the music on to future players, at least, that was the only way to do that before we had recording technology. I get a kick out of playing music on the guitar that was written in the 1500s! It’s extraordinary. Sure, the music wasn’t written for the guitar but it can be easily played on the guitar.

Imagine what we would have lost if we didn’t have Bach’s music in his own hand, or in his wife’s hand. I suppose we’d have whatever people could remember, but it wouldn’t be much, and it would probably be riddled with errors. Bach wrote over 1100 pieces of music, and some were lost!

Yes, people can do amazing things without learning to read music but if others are going to play that music, somebody has to write it down in some form.

Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
LarryK #2921806 12/11/19 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Writing music down in notation is about passing the music on to future players, at least, that was the only way to do that before we had recording technology. I get a kick out of playing music on the guitar that was written in the 1500s! It’s extraordinary. Sure, the music wasn’t written for the guitar but it can be easily played on the guitar.

Imagine what we would have lost if we didn’t have Bach’s music in his own hand, or in his wife’s hand. I suppose we’d have whatever people could remember, but it wouldn’t be much, and it would probably be riddled with errors. Bach wrote over 1100 pieces of music, and some were lost!

Yes, people can do amazing things without learning to read music but if others are going to play that music, somebody has to write it down in some form.

That's the point. I'm sure we all know some 'traditional songs' that were written who-knows-when and by who-knows-who. They were so popular and sung so constantly that they have been 'remembered' through time, BUT, if we were to time travel, and be able to hear what that tune first sounded like way back then, it would probably be different. It's like a game of telephone, a little bit gets lost or changed along the way. What would Bach sound like if it was only remembered that way?


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I pray, that tomorrow I may strive to be a little better than I am today - and, on behalf of everybody else, I give thanks for headphones.
Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2921808 12/11/19 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jytte
Counter-intuitive? I don't quite understand that. As in, I don't see what you mean by that. Maybe because I'm seeing it from a different perspective? I actually looked at sheets before I touched a piano, trying to start to understand the theory of it.


Yes I think it's a matter of perspective. For instance, I found it very strange that we give values to the duration of the note. I was thinking of note values as how long the note waits after the previous one, so I was associating the time value with the next note. The first note wouldn't have a time value at all. It seems bizarre now that I think of it.

It's interesting to look at the way Flamenco musicians count some rhythms. They accent certain notes, so you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11,12. A classically trained person would ask why they don't just shift the numbers around, but a Flamenco player would say that it would give a different rhythm.

Last edited by johnstaf; 12/11/19 07:27 AM.
Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2921813 12/11/19 08:28 AM
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Really helps to write it down if you want to publish or at least record it if you want to own copyright to your work.

Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
wszxbcl #2921828 12/11/19 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by wszxbcl
Really helps to write it down if you want to publish or at least record it if you want to own copyright to your work.

Pop and Rock is officially copyrighted via lead sheets. So all you need to know are the melody line and the chords.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: (OT) The Voice... shock
Jytte #2922098 12/11/19 10:33 PM
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Fiddlin' Bill was a master of his craft. He could play "Boil the Cabbage", "Leather Britches", and even "Katy Hill!"

When asked about reading music, though, he said

he tried one time
to read an ol' line;
never did try it again.
Just couldn't comprehend! shocked

Fiddlin' Bill

laugh

Last edited by Ralphiano; 12/11/19 10:34 PM.

Ralph

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