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1ms audio, can you tell the difference? #2920800 12/07/19 10:18 PM
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Alright everyone,
I made this with audacity and it is very easy to do. Left and right channels have a 1ms delay:

1ms Delayed Audio Clip

My question is who can tell the difference between left and right.

My ears can't distinguish anything from it.

Please tell us if you can hear it to gather some statistics... cheers.


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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2920805 12/07/19 11:21 PM
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Left is twice as loud as right. You should WARN listeners - it almost burst my ear drums.

Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2920814 12/08/19 12:16 AM
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I can ear the difference. Left channel is new age music and right channel is more electro-pop. crazy



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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2920815 12/08/19 12:25 AM
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Alright then, well please set the volume to low and increase it to the desired loudness gradually.

I am still looking forward to seeing if anyone can detect the 1ms delay. Let me know please.


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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2920859 12/08/19 04:46 AM
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I guess you will get more responses if you post a nice piece of piano music with 1ms delay


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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2920873 12/08/19 05:30 AM
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No. I can't.

Last edited by clothearednincompo; 12/08/19 05:30 AM.
Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2920890 12/08/19 08:22 AM
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As I listen to it now I realize that you posted it 10 hours and 3 minutes ago.
So ... to me the difference is not 1 msec. It's approximately 10 hours and 3 minutes.

Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2920904 12/08/19 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Left and right channels have a 1ms delay:

My ears can't distinguish anything from it.


There's an physiological reason for this, and it's a good demonstration why these casual tests aren't typically well-thought out, and so don't always measure what their creators think they do.

L/R timing differences are a class of HRTFs that your brain uses to determine the 3d spatial position of a source. As such, presented with the same sound, your brain processes/filters small differences in timing between ears as coming from a single source and timing, and that's how you consciously perceive it. Same with small changes in volume.

Stereo separation of sound is so loaded a nueral process, and has no real connection to the issue of hand/ear latency perception, I really have to call into question how it is relevant here.

It's like saying the human eye can only differentiate between 16 colors, and then choosing a test with color plates all between #ffccee and #ffcced to try to prove the point.


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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2920916 12/08/19 10:29 AM
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So ... what has this to do with the piano?

Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Gombessa] #2920921 12/08/19 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
There's an physiological reason for this, and it's a good demonstration why these casual tests aren't typically well-thought out, and so don't always measure what their creators think they do.


Yeah I said earlier that 1-ms works but that was for a piano sound. I used that latency because of Abdol's 1-ms focus, but in general 1-ms is an extremely long latency for this task and outside the physiological range. For artificial tones, it will work for smaller delays (and also for piano sounds of course).

In any case, Abdol, I think you're missing the point. My example was just to show that you were wrong about 1 ms latency detection being incompatible with neurophysiology, and to show the precision neural coding can achieve. The example itself has nothing to do with the type of latency that nicknametaken was talking about.

If you are genuinely interested in the effects of latency in terms of playing a digital instrument I highly recommend you read the paper that I referred to earlier: here. It is from a group at an internationally respected university in London. They are expert scientists on digital instruments who study exactly these problems and they do reproducible tests and publish them in peer-reviewed journals. They and other researchers in this field recommend on the basis of perception research such as the one linked that MIDI instruments have a maximum latency of 10ms, with 1ms jitter (latency variation) at most.

Sadly, they find that modern computer systems (i.e. PC/Mac) are still not up to that task, see a different paper of theirs: Action-Sound Latency: Are Our Tools Fast Enough? All in all it seems that nicknametaken's original comments are entirely in line with these findings.

To end with the good news: the same scientists are working on a device that should overcome these problems: the Bela.


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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: MacMacMac] #2920930 12/08/19 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
So ... what has this to do with the piano?

Which one?


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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: CyberGene] #2920934 12/08/19 11:53 AM
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This sound, that sound, 1 msec ... what has that to do with pianos?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
So ... what has this to do with the piano?
Which one?

Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: MacMacMac] #2920937 12/08/19 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This sound, that sound, 1 msec ... what has that to do with pianos?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
So ... what has this to do with the piano?
Which one?


Only with digital pianos I guess.


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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: pianogabe] #2920958 12/08/19 01:02 PM
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Quote
[/quote]
Originally Posted by pianogabe
[quote=Gombessa] There's an physiological reason for this, and it's a good demonstration why these casual tests aren't typically well-thought out, and so don't always measure what their creators think they do.


Yeah I said earlier that 1-ms works but that was for a piano sound. I used that latency because of Abdol's 1-ms focus, but in general 1-ms is an extremely long latency for this task and outside the physiological range. For artificial tones, it will work for smaller delays (and also for piano sounds of course).

In any case, Abdol, I think you're missing the point. My example was just to show that you were wrong about 1 ms latency detection being incompatible with neurophysiology, and to show the precision neural coding can achieve. The example itself has nothing to do with the type of latency that nicknametaken was talking about.

If you are genuinely interested in the effects of latency in terms of playing a digital instrument I highly recommend you read the paper that I referred to earlier: here. It is from a group at an internationally respected university in London. They are expert scientists on digital instruments who study exactly these problems and they do reproducible tests and publish them in peer-reviewed journals. They and other researchers in this field recommend on the basis of perception research such as the one linked that MIDI instruments have a maximum latency of 10ms, with 1ms jitter (latency variation) at most.

Sadly, they find that modern computer systems (i.e. PC/Mac) are still not up to that task, see a different paper of theirs: Action-Sound Latency: Are Our Tools Fast Enough? All in all it seems that nicknametaken's original comments are entirely in line with these findings.

To end with the good news: the same scientists are working on a device that should overcome these problems: the Bela.



Hey pianogabe, I have read journal papers and still reading them for more than a decade! Take a look at what I selected for you:

Quote
We find that, perhaps
surprisingly, almost none of the tested configurations meet
generally-accepted guidelines for latency and jitter.


Quote
Our results show that over a decade after Wessel and Wright’s
article [22] set out a 10ms standard for digital musical instruments,


So you've pulled out one paper and showing me the results of it? How many journal papers have you written in your life?

I call this paper an academic BS because there is no actual case study in it. No evidence no nothing. Why I'm calling it like this? Because I have written journal papers myself and I can easily distingush garbage publications just by reading the: Abstract,

I have wasted some of my precious time on this useless/worthless paper, but here is what it says:

It talks about percussive instruments. Sure, Piano can be categorized as a percussive instrument, but it is not instant like a drum kit or any other percussive instruments like conga and bongo...

The piano has an additional delay. The hammer doesn't hit the string immediately as soon as the key reaches the end, and every 30cm distance adds about 1ms of delay in hearing the sound. Different pianos have different actions and a piano is not an absolute/digital instrument. So 1,2,3... ms delay is normal to be experienced every time you play with the exact same velocity which you nor any other superhuman can do.

- You can't play the piano with the same velocity every time
- And even if you do, the piano will not sound exactly the same time each time.

Let me reiterate that, scientifically no human can perceive 1ms delay with their ears.

"You will never perceive the 1ms delay. Bring on all of your papers!"


If you can tell the difference between certain delays, it is very likely due to the superposition of the waves, phase cancellation, etc. Not that your ears are capable of detecting 1 or 2 or 5ms delays.

Last edited by Abdol; 12/08/19 01:08 PM.

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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Gombessa] #2920962 12/08/19 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Abdol
Left and right channels have a 1ms delay:

My ears can't distinguish anything from it.


There's an physiological reason for this, and it's a good demonstration why these casual tests aren't typically well-thought out, and so don't always measure what their creators think they do.

L/R timing differences are a class of HRTFs that your brain uses to determine the 3d spatial position of a source. As such, presented with the same sound, your brain processes/filters small differences in timing between ears as coming from a single source and timing, and that's how you consciously perceive it. Same with small changes in volume.

Stereo separation of sound is so loaded a nueral process, and has no real connection to the issue of hand/ear latency perception, I really have to call into question how it is relevant here.

It's like saying the human eye can only differentiate between 16 colors, and then choosing a test with color plates all between #ffccee and #ffcced to try to prove the point.


What are you talking about? What is a well-thought-of test?

This is what happens when someone without a single clue, starts judging an experiment. The sine wave has been generated by specifying the duration, frequency, and shape of the wave. It is very accurate (precision of floats, doubles, int, etc in any programming platform).

This is a blind-folded test indeed. The purpose is to see who is BSing and who is not.

Something none of the papers you have posted has them.

There is no difference between the amplitude of the left and right waveforms, I set the loudness to a low decibel (I should open the project and check it but about .3). The audio has been well tested on 4 headphones, and 2 monitor speakers. It is balanced and not loud.

Last edited by Abdol; 12/08/19 01:12 PM.

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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2920964 12/08/19 01:18 PM
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OK, Abdol, we will never agree that is clear. I say we stop discussing this. I don't think at this point anything can be done to convince the different perspectives.


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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: pianogabe] #2920979 12/08/19 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pianogabe
OK, Abdol, we will never agree that is clear. I say we stop discussing this. I don't think at this point anything can be done to convince the different perspectives.


Non-blindfolded studies are useless. Especially when it comes to topics like this. And...., they did research and come up with a device to sell! How smart!

Here is another example: a Stradivarius violin blind test! A blindfolded test revealed absolute random results in detecting which Stradivarius among other violins. Not reliable.

This device comes with a microcontroller inside. It is the same old technology. Yamaha, Korg, and Roland have already mastered this technology. MOTIF XF comes with Montavista Linux, a realtime OS.

If someone wants to make a true sub-millisecond device the should implement it on FPGAs. But there are no demands and no one will buy it because it will be super expensive and 10ms+jitter delay is awesome enough for everyone to be happy!

Last edited by Abdol; 12/08/19 01:58 PM.

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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: pianogabe] #2921228 12/09/19 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by pianogabe

Sadly, they find that modern computer systems (i.e. PC/Mac) are still not up to that task


That is because these are not made for the task of super low latency audio.

General purpose computers are intended to sleep as much as possible to be light on their batteries, while delivering computing tasks on demand. Response times in the domain of seconds are acceptable here. This class includes PCs, tablets, phones and other devices running applications (also known as "apps"), regardless if manufactured by Apple or not.

Yamaha, Roland and others have dedicated chips made for the task of mixing real time audio to be built into devices permanently connected to a mains power supply.


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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2921366 12/09/19 04:51 PM
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Just a quick update. The file initially posted has -0- delay.

It was interesting to read these few comments. The purpose was to see who is posting without careful inspection of the file (you can open the file and inspect the waveforms in a DAW, for example, to see that the left and right channels are identical).

I have generated a handful of files and I can post all of them here for a good blindfolded test. Of course, again there is no point in posting them as you can't hear the 1ms or even 5ms delay. The only thing ears can recognize is the phase difference and that is because of the different phases of vibration in your eardrums. Sine wave generated by the computer is too perfect and quite, thus easy to perceive the phase difference (not relevant to the speed of your neurons!).

LOL

Last edited by Abdol; 12/09/19 04:54 PM.

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Re: 1ms audio, can you tell the difference? [Re: Abdol] #2921405 12/09/19 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Alright everyone,
I made this with audacity and it is very easy to do. Left and right channels have a 1ms delay:

1ms Delayed Audio Clip

My question is who can tell the difference between left and right.


It would be very very hard for someone to honestly feel the difference of 1ms. Think of this in analog world. Suppose you have 2 speakers playing something in *perfect* sync. And you were 1 foot closer to one than the other. That is the difference of 1ms. Speed of sound is 343 m/s - so in 1 ms - sound travels .343m which is about 1 foot. Have you ever heard someone say that left speaker is about a foot closer than the right one? That is absurd!

Osho


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