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Help reading this piece? #2920291 12/05/19 06:58 PM
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Mils Offline OP
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Has anybody played “Ivan Sings?”
I don’t understand the way some of the notes are written and I’m also unsure about some other things. The teacher ran out of time, so I’m on my own. Half hour lessons are really not sufficient. Some of the notes look like “Bs” and Cs” stacked in top of each other. I thought the top note might be an “E” but further on the “E” is clearly recognizable.

Last edited by Mils; 12/05/19 07:00 PM.
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Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2920299 12/05/19 07:48 PM
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keystring Offline
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I sent a PM.

Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2920803 12/07/19 11:07 PM
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Btw, do you have a blurry score - rather than having difficulty reading (knowing how to read) the score?

Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2920827 12/08/19 01:24 AM
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If you can post a picture of the problem part(s) of the score, then we might better be able to help.

I have found this:

Ivan Sings

[Linked Image]

but it doesn't seem problematic in any way.

P.S. The image is larger and clearer in the link above the included image.

Regards,


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Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2920925 12/08/19 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mils
Has anybody played “Ivan Sings?”
I don’t understand the way some of the notes are written and I’m also unsure about some other things. The teacher ran out of time, so I’m on my own. Half hour lessons are really not sufficient. Some of the notes look like “Bs” and Cs” stacked in top of each other. I thought the top note might be an “E” but further on the “E” is clearly recognizable.


You were right. The first measure is a C and an E flat. Just play them at the same time. It just looks different from other E's because it's on a ledger line so you know to play it with your left hand.

Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2921003 12/08/19 03:34 PM
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I've been waiting because I don't think we know necessarily what the problem actually is. At least it's not clear to me. I know this piece extremely well because it's one of the few that my teacher and I decided to milk it for everything we could. It has three main sections, and there are different challenges in the 2nd and third, where the rhythm changes, and if you are working at a more advanced level, some choices of pedal near the end to bring out this and that.

I wasn't able to understand what was meant here:
Quote
Some of the notes look like “Bs” and Cs” stacked in top of each other. I thought the top note might be an “E” but further on the “E” is clearly recognizable.

For example, either a note is B, or it isn't a B - but if Mils was given a blurry copy, maybe the notes literally are hard to see. That was one possibility. It could be anything else.

One thing about this piece is that the LH is not very diatonic. That is, the notes are not those of the key signature. If you are used to playing diatonic music, it might throw you. Measure 12 has Cb Eb played in thirds. There .... you have "B and E" piano-wise. That is to say, Cb is the piano key that we push for B. They are "enharmonic equivalents (different spelling for the same piano key and sound). I can well imagine that this may be the puzzlement.

If this is the problem: The LH keeps going down by half steps, both notes. If you simply do that whenever they change, or notice the pattern, most of that battle is won. For example:
m. 1- 2 C Eb
m. 3 B D (B is a half step lower than the C, D is a half step lower than the Eb - you've moved to two keys to the left of where you were)
m. 4 Bb Db --- Both of these notes are a half step lower than the previous two
m. 5 A C--- same thing
m. 6 Ab Cb --- same thing. The Ab Cb could have been written G# B .... there's one of those Cb's
m. 7 G Bb -- still same pattern
m. 8 breaks the pattern ... your G goes down to Gb but Bb remains - you now have a major 3rd instead of minor thirds . .... then the FA does that same half step slide down
m. 9 completes that cycle with Eb G

m.1 - 9 is a long downward slide by half steps in the LH, underneath the melody. All the triads are minor thirds, so that when it changes to M3 in m. 8 and 9, it adds a new mood and also helps conclude this part. For me it's like walking in the woods in shade and suddenly there's a sunny spot of a clearing.

m. 10 - 13 do the same pattern in the LH, You lose the thirds as of m. 14 but the "chromatic slides" are still in there. (I don't think "chromatic slide" is any kind of official term, but it describes what is happening in the music).

I have no idea whether the odd looking Cb - which can throw someone if they're not used to it - is the problem.

I still have my recording on SoundCloud, if that helps to hear the chromatic descent (LH going down by half steps).

https://soundcloud.com/usernewtothis/ivan-nov-3-2014-mp3

The rhythmic challenge (for me, then) in the 2nd part is here - I have a recording because I was checking it with my teacher at the time.
https://soundcloud.com/usernewtothis/ivan-idea-short-mp3-1

You have the timing between the two hands playing different kinds of rhythm and I pedaled twice per measure. You can let go of the bottom note early, which allows the hand to move more freely. (My version does not have pedal marks because I was also encouraged to learn to make pedal decisions).

Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2921013 12/08/19 04:15 PM
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Going on a tangent, and a bit OT.
I've been given new ways of looking a theory recently, maybe more piano-centric. If you slide a single note up or down in a chord or interval, you get a different quality. And that happens in this piece in m. 8. Because only one of the notes changes, we have a new quality.
G Bb .... m3 like all the other m3's
Gb Bb ... the Bb stayed put, the Gb moved away so there's a bigger space between the two notes; it has to be M3.

There are other things we've been doing, almost like a plaything. CEG - major triad. Everyone knows if you slide the E down to Eb you get a minor triad: Cm. But with your CEG, if you slide the C down to B, you get BEG = Em/B. It's turned into a game: what kind of chord do you get when you slide one of the notes up or down by a semitone (half step)? What happens if you start with an m6 or M6 interval and fill in some middle notes, or A middle note, and then start sliding stuff around. Then you start seeing what composers did. The theory books have fancy names and processes for a lot of this, but the slippy-slidy might be another way to grab on to what they're doing.

Just throwing that out there. laugh

Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2921028 12/08/19 04:55 PM
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Mils
Since you have had very few lessons (4-5 as of the end of Oct), you might need to file Keystring’s posts in the ‘study later file’. They have great information, but don’t be discouraged if it is beyond where you are right now.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: dogperson] #2921035 12/08/19 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Mils
Since you have had very few lessons (4-5 as of the end of Oct), you might need to file Keystring’s posts in the ‘study later file’. They have great information, but don’t be discouraged if it is beyond where you are right now.

I was actually waiting for Mils to have time to get back on this, until people started to write in solutions. What I wrote is an overview sort of for "anyone" to give a sense of what is going on. I wouldn't teach like that. I didn't even know the background. I offered to do some exploration privately, and then I'd also find out what is and isn't known, and maybe teach something much more basic. Aspects of this music can be learned in a basic way. For example, playing CEb, then moving each note one to the left, is a childlike thing to do. Exploring how notes can gradually slither up and down can be done at a 6 year old level (I've seen it done), or it can be made really complicated. I'd wait to find out what's what. That is why I was silent in the thread.

If this is someone who is only starting piano, then I'm surprised that this piece was given, and especially to work out on one's own.

Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2921037 12/08/19 05:22 PM
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I was guessing that the C's and B's might involve the Cb's since Cb = C, but it is impossible to know until we hear back from the OP.

Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2921759 12/11/19 12:25 AM
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What was throwing me at first was just the way the notes were written but I was correct in what I thought. I fkund a youtube animation that helped me check my fingering. I've been playing for about 2 months and my biggest problems with this piece are technique, to make it sound the way it should, including paying attention to dynamics, and a little more than halfway through, when the Cs are on both staves just doesn't wormout for me. I know what it should sound like but I just can't get it there The teacher recorded the piece for me but we had no time for him to actually teach it I am feeling pretty discouraged by the fact that I coukdn't get through it on my own, esoecially after seeing 6 year olds on youtube performing it like pros.
I'm also not crazy about the teacher's, "that's good enough" attitude. I need to know why "it's good enough"-because I'm an adult or some other reason? I hate to waste time even asking, since we never seem to covdr ehat we should before the lesson is over. I don't think it's intentional, meaning to force more lesons and more $ but maybe it is. I'm not having much luck with piano teachers, that's for sure.

Last edited by Mils; 12/11/19 12:31 AM.
Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2922124 12/12/19 02:06 AM
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Quote
and a little more than halfway through, when the Cs are on both staves just doesn't work out for me.

I still don't know what you mean by this, and would be interested in what you do mean. What measure?
Quote
I know what it should sound like but I just can't get it there .

That should be your teacher's job. That includes the steps to do.
Quote
especially after seeing 6 year olds on youtube performing it like pros.

I searched Youtube just now. I didn't hear any young students play it like "pros". There was one child who played it decently. It also said "RCM gr. 6". If s/he has been taught for 6 years (assuming one grade per year) then you should not expect to be able to play it like s/he does (and it still is at a basic, correct level). If this child is indeed pursuing RCM, and if this was an exam piece, you have to imagine that the teacher probably worked with the student on this for a few months to polish it. How do you think the young student would sound, if the teacher had said, "Here's the music - here's my recording of it - now see what you can do."

There is a teaching problem here.

Re: Help reading this piece? [Re: Mils] #2922575 12/13/19 01:28 PM
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The mystery of the "two C's" probably solved. This is how it looks in my copy:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqxtjlc8liqp15o/Cees_LI.jpg?dl=0

If you are not a beginner and got taught that the pedal will hold the note, then you would play the RH C, let it go with the hand, and have room for the upcoming C's in the LH. Or at least, your teacher shows this. If you try to hold the note for its duration, then it becomes an impossibility.

For someone with a few months of piano to be assigned this piece, to figure out on their own just from notation, I can't help but question that. In one place it's slated as "RCM gr. 6". The first page is easier than the second.


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