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Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: terminaldegree] #2919512 12/03/19 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
As you rightly mention, physics, along with packaging and cost are why there’s no free lunch here. People often ask for contradictory things: “I want an action that feels just like an acoustic grand piano and will last 20 years. But it needs to weigh less than 30 pounds, take up a tiny footprint in the room, the action must be silent, and I have a budget of $800”...


Spot on!


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919550 12/04/19 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
There has been several discussions here trying to collect the numbers. This one I was able to find easily: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2852613/key-pivot-length.html
Yes, I saw that one, and it didn't tell me all that much. I believe you posted a photo example comment there using a Casio model that dates from 2008.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
But any pianist would also concede that the currently-being-maligned Casio, Yamaha GHS, and Fatar TP100 actions feel nothing alike, even if they share a similarly short pivot length. This is the danger of using one parameter alone to define whether a piano is good or not. ...
Well yes, exactly. Those who find this or that action to be good or bad are free to buy whatever good, playable one they like and can afford. Opinions, including those on relative value, though will vary.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919553 12/04/19 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

Then there are "subjective assessments" trying to fight these facts.
By the way, it's not "fighting" against facts. It's fighting against the notion that any person of discernment is going to view and experience this or that fact the same way you do.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2919783 12/04/19 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
I believe you posted a photo example comment there using a Casio model that dates from 2008.


Casio's key/pivot length hasn't changed since.

Except for the very latest "S" models where they made the keys even shorter.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2919801 12/04/19 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
There are facts:
- The pivot length is a measurable fact.
- Casio happens to have a short pivot just like Yamaha GHS, Fatar TP/100 and others.
- People complain about those too.
- The consistency of the playing feel along the piano key is proportional to the pivot length and it alone say the laws of physics.

Then there are "subjective assessments" trying to fight these facts.

"I don't find it to be a problem" is an okay statement. Good for you. You can comfortably play on keys with short pivot.

But that doesn't make the measurable facts and laws of physics to go away.

smile


I can comfortably play on a short-pivot synth action, but I won't practice or perform classical piano repertoire on it.

Longer keys balanced on pins are an inherent feature of a proper piano action just as the hammers attached to them are. All manufacturers figured out, that hammers are indeed a required feature in any digital piano action, but some still like to pretend that sufficient pivot length isn't.

For me it is. Going below a certain minimum set by upright pianos means the action loses certain piano-like properties in the same way as replacing the hammers with springs would. It might still be a super-compact, lightweight keyboard action, but it's not piano-like anymore - despite having hammer weights.

Note that an instrument doesn't need to have actual pins, as we can't see those. But a certain key dip all the way to the fallboard is a minimum requirement in my book.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2919817 12/04/19 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
I believe you posted a photo example comment there using a Casio model that dates from 2008.


Casio's key/pivot length hasn't changed since.

Except for the very latest "S" models where they made the keys even shorter.

Not saying that it has, but whats your source?

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919833 12/04/19 06:10 PM
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The vast majority of my playing is classical, at an advanced level. I can manage this just fine on my Casio, thank-you. In fact, I find playing classical music on my PX-870 every bit as natural/comfortable as if I were playing a "real" piano.

So, I performed my own little unscientific test this afternoon. I deliberately played quite close to the fallboard, and sure enough, I was able to do so with ease. Next, I tried playing right up against the fallboard... and was still able to do so, though not as comfortably. But it still worked for me. I am doubtful that it would feel any more natural/comfortable on an acoustic. Then again, I can't imagine anyone having to, or wanting to, play in this manner; its just not how it's done.

I'm not exactly what one would call a young, healthy guy. I am pushing sixty, and have an irreparably crushed upper spine, (C1 through C6) which keeps me bedridden for approx 20 hours/day. My spinal troubles have also caused permanent nerve damage to both hands. I also suffer from advanced Rheumatoid Arthritis in my fingers, wrists and elbows, and I have severe PMR (Polymyalgia Rheumatica) in both shoulders and both hips. And don't even get me started on my off-the-scale, ever-present RLS and IBS! So the way I see it, if a pianist in my, shall we say, less-than-stellar condition can easily play close to the fallboard on a lowly Casio... well... pretty much anyone with a pulse should be able to do the same.

So really, what is the point then, of a long, particularly nasty thread consisting mainly of bickering/fighting over this huge issue of an apparently short pivot length on Casio and Yamaha DPs? Sorry, I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919841 12/04/19 06:20 PM
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Lowly? Why must this topic always reframed as some sort of snobbery issue?

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: johnstaf] #2919844 12/04/19 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Lowly? Why must this topic always reframed as some sort of snobbery issue?

Now really, how on earth did I predict that you would be the first person to reply to my post?

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919847 12/04/19 06:28 PM
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Was my question unreasonable in some way?

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: johnstaf] #2919851 12/04/19 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Was my question unreasonable in some way?


Haha, not really. But you're remarkably predictable. Well, either that or I'm some kind of clairvoyant... Interesting too, that you mention snobbery.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919853 12/04/19 06:45 PM
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You're the one who referred to your piano as lowly.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919857 12/04/19 06:58 PM
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BTW I really hope you can get some help for your spine. That must be dreadful. I thought I was bad having a bit of backspin when I play too long...

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: johnstaf] #2919861 12/04/19 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
BTW I really hope you can get some help for your spine. That must be dreadful. I thought I was bad having a bit of backspin when I play too long...

johnstaf, I wrote out a smart-@ss reply and immediately deleted it, as I just couldn't bring myself to be nasty, it's not who I am. And thank God I did delete it right away, because I then saw your next post and I suddenly realized that you're just a regular, nice fellow like most everyone else on here. Now I feel like such an @ss. Anyway, I thank you for your concern about my health. It is what it is, it can't be fixed, but I try my best to live each day to the fullest. Thanks again for your kind comment; much appreciated!

Last edited by camperbc; 12/04/19 07:11 PM. Reason: spelling, grammar
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919863 12/04/19 07:12 PM
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We can all be friends and still disagree! Just like any family!

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: johnstaf] #2919864 12/04/19 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
We can all be friends and still disagree! Just like any family!

Haha, you said it! Now I just wish I could delete my previous couple of posts as well...

Last edited by camperbc; 12/04/19 07:18 PM.
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919868 12/04/19 07:26 PM
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A lot us wish we could go back and change posts, including me. I don't know why we can only edit for a couple of minutes.

Last edited by johnstaf; 12/04/19 07:26 PM.
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: johnstaf] #2919874 12/04/19 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
A lot us wish we could go back and change posts, including me. I don't know why we can only edit for a couple of minutes.


Yeah, I'm not sure either. I would bet that many of us on here have said things in the heat of the moment from the comfort of our homes that we wish we could delete, only then it's too late. Anyhow, I'm going to make it my goal, moving forward, to be the best person that I can be, and to always make an effort to be more respectful to others, whether in agreement or not. I dislike conflict of any kind, even on the internet with people I've never even met.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919880 12/04/19 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by camperbc

So, I performed my own little unscientific test this afternoon. I deliberately played quite close to the fallboard, and sure enough, I was able to do so with ease.
Same here. I'm puzzled as to what that specific problem is. Now is the Casio perfect? Of course not. The most disappointing thing to me are the internal speakers (ironically, since you'd think that's an area Casio would excel in). Is the action equal to a concert grand? No. But as I said it's at least as good as any upright I've played, and for my purposes and at that price that's more than good enough.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2919882 12/04/19 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie

Stop conflating keys and hammers. They're two different parts.
We're still waiting for your evidence that the Yamaha N3X has fake keys.

Idiotic. The hammers are the keys' reason for being there in the first place. If the key is not manipulating a hammer to strike strings to produce a tone, it's not a plain old "actual" piano.


Ok, so since you refuse to verify your own wild claim (that the Yamaha N3X has fake keys) I have done it for you.

The Yamaha N3X uses a real piano action with the same wooden keys as they use in their acoustic grand pianos:
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/avantgrand/n3x/features.html

'the all-important key action, which the AvantGrand series has inherited from Yamaha’s esteemed concert grand pianos'

Last edited by Burkie; 12/04/19 08:12 PM.
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