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1ms challenge
#2919723 12/04/19 02:24 PM
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Well, it seems there are few folks here, who believe 1ms is perceivable to ears.

Here is a challenge to study the 1ms issue and see who can perceive it and who can not and finally make a decision about finally put an end to this unsolved mystery.

Part 1:
1- Can we here an audio signal which is only 1ms?

Part 2:
2- Can we tell the difference between 2 audio signals that are delayed by 1ms from each other?

The results must be reproducible by anyone who is interested in doing so. So no-nonsense posts, please.

I am announcing the first three participants to prove their claims:

1- @nicknameTaken
2- @pianogabe
3- @Gombessa

Last edited by Abdol; 12/04/19 02:26 PM.

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Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919736 12/04/19 02:51 PM
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Totally irrelevant. The only latency I care about is a delayed sound from the piano, caused by latency in the VST event chain.

When latency is too great the fingers get confused, as the sound doesn't sync with what the fingers are doing.
So I only care about the time lapse between finger actions and sounds heard.
When that latency is low enough it's all good.

I don't care whether I can hear a 1 msec time lapse between two sounds. It has no meaning to me.

Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919739 12/04/19 02:58 PM
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I agree.
I don't care whether I can hear a 1 msec time lapse between two sounds. It has no meaning to me.

What MacMacMac said - When latency is too great the fingers get confused, as the sound doesn't sync with what the fingers are doing.
It doesn't even have to be only latency, but other technical problems which add to the problem.

Re: 1ms challenge
MacMacMac #2919740 12/04/19 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Totally irrelevant. The only latency I care about is a delayed sound from the piano, caused by latency in the VST event chain.

When latency is too great the fingers get confused, as the sound doesn't sync with what the fingers are doing.
So I only care about the time lapse between finger actions and sounds heard.
When that latency is low enough it's all good.

I don't care whether I can hear a 1 msec time lapse between two sounds. It has no meaning to me.


Did I say anything about Pianos???


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Re: 1ms challenge
nicknameTaken #2919741 12/04/19 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I agree.
I don't care whether I can hear a 1 msec time lapse between two sounds. It has no meaning to me.

What MacMacMac said - When latency is too great the fingers get confused, as the sound doesn't sync with what the fingers are doing.
It doesn't even have to be only latency, but other technical problems which add to the problem.


It's completely relevant to what you said in your post. You said you perceive the 1ms. You totally ignored the fact that Piano is an analog machine and all the folks here were counting milliseconds instead of focusing on the actual mechanics in a hand made-machine like Piano.

Now, since you denied everything about Piano in your post, you have a chance to prove yourself! Either you're making a joke or you are correct.

I just want to learn something from you and the other two guys here. Much appreciated.

And in further posts, I will make it more challenging. For now, let's just test the neurons.

Last edited by Abdol; 12/04/19 03:06 PM.

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Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919742 12/04/19 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Totally irrelevant. The only latency I care about is a delayed sound from the piano, caused by latency in the VST event chain.

When latency is too great the fingers get confused, as the sound doesn't sync with what the fingers are doing.
So I only care about the time lapse between finger actions and sounds heard.
When that latency is low enough it's all good.

I don't care whether I can hear a 1 msec time lapse between two sounds. It has no meaning to me.


Did I say anything about Pianos???


Why do you want to have approval for a study that has been already been approved and revised?
We are musicians at PianoWorld. Everything that counts for us is that our instruments are behaving the way they should. If they don't, something is off.

To accent it - I never was interested in distinguishing 1ms, but to say that when I use a VSTi, and it's on the reading which shows 1ms, it's too much for me.
Did you take into account that the latency of the digital instrument adds with the VSTi ? It's probably not 0. Therefore was never the same latency as the program reported. Right?

First, how can we find out the base latency?
Your understanding of my claim is off.

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 12/04/19 03:08 PM.
Re: 1ms challenge
nicknameTaken #2919746 12/04/19 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Totally irrelevant. The only latency I care about is a delayed sound from the piano, caused by latency in the VST event chain.

When latency is too great the fingers get confused, as the sound doesn't sync with what the fingers are doing.
So I only care about the time lapse between finger actions and sounds heard.
When that latency is low enough it's all good.

I don't care whether I can hear a 1 msec time lapse between two sounds. It has no meaning to me.


Did I say anything about Pianos???


Why do you want to have approval for a study that has been already been approved and revised?
We are musicians at PianoWorld. Everything that counts for us is that our instruments are behaving the way they should. If they don't, something is off.

To accent it - I never was interested in distinguishing 1ms, but to say that when I use a VSTi, and it's on the reading which shows 1ms, it's too much for me.
Did you take into account that the latency of the digital instrument adds with the VSTi ? It's probably not 0. Therefore was never the same latency as the program reported. Right?


It has been studied? Who said that? We can continue this discussion in its relevant post (although it is a dumb discussion).

So in your own post, you were a physicist, neurologist, mathematician and now you have changed to a musician in this post?

And what's wrong with doing something as simple as this once again? Many scientists discovered new phenomena by repeating previously done experiments...

Last edited by Abdol; 12/04/19 03:16 PM.

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Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919749 12/04/19 03:19 PM
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Abdol: Maybe you need a new hobby?

Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919751 12/04/19 03:21 PM
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Abdol, assuming this thread isn't closed, I'm willing to take the test for my own curiosity. Please let me know when you are ready to administer it.

Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919755 12/04/19 03:28 PM
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Hit me with the challenge, too. I was just clarifying stuff.

Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919756 12/04/19 03:31 PM
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Thanks, but this topic is already a bit too polemic, and I've already taken/posted one of many available online tests here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ever-use-a-vsti-anymore.html#Post2919535

I don't have anything to personally prove, my point is just that I do believe people (and not just an anointed few) can perceive much smaller timing differences than some were claiming in the thread.


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Re: 1ms challenge
Gombessa #2919759 12/04/19 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Thanks, but this topic is already a bit too polemic, and I've already taken/posted one of many available online tests here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ever-use-a-vsti-anymore.html#Post2919535

I don't have anything to personally prove, my point is just that I do believe people (and not just an anointed few) can perceive much smaller timing differences than some were claiming in the thread.


Thanks. I passed the test. I can tell the difference between the 1ms delayed sample and the normal one.

Re: 1ms challenge
Gombessa #2919762 12/04/19 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Abdol: Maybe you need a new hobby?


Come on MacMacMac, this is fun? nothing wrong with it.

Originally Posted by navindra
Abdol, assuming this thread isn't closed, I'm willing to take the test for my own curiosity. Please let me know when you are ready to administer it.


Sure. I said initially and I'm here to do it.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Thanks, but this topic is already a bit too polemic, and I've already taken/posted one of many available online tests here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ever-use-a-vsti-anymore.html#Post2919535

I don't have anything to personally prove, my point is just that I do believe people (and not just an anointed few) can perceive much smaller timing differences than some were claiming in the thread.


30 fps... yes, but have you ever heard about "image persistence in neurons"? No one is against 30fps or 60fps. No one said it. The research about Piano is approximate. 25 or 26 ms has no difference.

This though is a different concept. I'm sure the outcomes are interesting.

Audacity is one free software that can be used. JIC and anyone interested can participate.

Last edited by Abdol; 12/04/19 03:43 PM.

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Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919764 12/04/19 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
So in your own post, you were a physicist, neurologist, mathematician and now you have changed to a musician in this post?
And what's wrong with doing something as simple as this once again? Many scientists discovered new phenomena by repeating previously done experiments...


Abdol, I was the neurologist, not nicknameTaken.

I myself don't see the point to prove again this well-established scientific result. The fact that I can hear the direction of sound is continuous proof that I am able to detect latencies smaller than 1 ms. I pointed you to proper studies showing this up to 10 microseconds and to a study explaining how it works. This is basic text book stuff, and you can find many non-academic sources all over the internet explaining this.

However if you insist on experiencing this for yourself: take a mono piano sound, copy it, and make a stereo sound by combining them. This is sound 1. Now shift the mono copy by 0.3 ms (or 1 ms if that is really important to you). Combine that with the original mono to a new stereo sound. This is sound 2. It only differs from sound 1 in that there is a 0.3 ms latency between the channels. Listen to these sounds over headphones. Can you hear the difference? I am certain you can. You can make it smaller than 0.3 ms, I just tried this (especially for you!) for 50 microseconds: it is very clear.

I think I said all I can and am willing to say about this.


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Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919771 12/04/19 04:07 PM
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You can discriminate between zero latency and 1ms but the real question is whether you can discriminate between 1ms and 2ms, 3ms, ... There’s always some latency on real pianos as discussed, so the goal is not to neutralize latency but make it low enough and not lower smile And I’m with Abdol here. I think the thread where it all started was based on wrong assumptions and declared VST-s unfit due to latency. And we all know that’s not true. One can explain that with superhuman abilities but that’s highly doubtful smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 12/04/19 04:09 PM.

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Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919772 12/04/19 04:08 PM
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I cannot distinguish 1 msec sounds ... but I can lose 30 pounds in 1 msec with the new Slim Fast diet! smile

Re: 1ms challenge
MacMacMac #2919773 12/04/19 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I cannot distinguish 1 msec sounds ... but I can lose 30 pounds in 1 msec with the new Slim Fast diet! smile


I have problems with that challenge. But that wasn't in context of playing though. Like having it as a sample to interact.
Must I yell that you read that finally?

How to find out base Piano latency?
Because it ADDS with the VSTi latency.

Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919774 12/04/19 04:17 PM
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Furthermore, your directional hearing ability is based on phase detection and that’s indeed within microsecond range but we’re talking about highly specialized system which is also calibrated with itself. You’re not detecting latency between different nervous stimulus, you’re detecting differences between two equal sensors: the ear drums, they are wired probably within the same brain region if not the same endpoint, if not the same neuron, specialized in that. Detecting keyboard latency on the other hand is a chain of many different events and signals, one neural signal commanding finger movement that takes time to physically move, then an analysis of the “key hit bottom” feedback compared to “ear heard sound”, these are different regions of brain. And there’s probably a separate region that compares them both. Apples and oranges smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 12/04/19 04:22 PM.

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Re: 1ms challenge
CyberGene #2919796 12/04/19 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Apples and oranges smile

Perhaps you should have a more careful look at the original thread. Abdol claimed that the OP's experience could not possibly be true because "the speed of neurons is in ms" or something of that nature. You, of all people, then added that the OP would better consider alternative explanations than assuming that he had superfast neurons (which he never said or suggested by the way). These statements do not make, logically and factually, sense.

Yes my and Gombessa's counter examples are different from playing a piano, and from each other, but they invalidate the sweeping claims that were made, in the original and in this thread. Abdol clearly repeated here that he is not talking about pianos, but just perception in general. There is also the other study that was discussed that actually did come close to playing a piano. Did you look at it? That did not test 1-ms differences, but pretty close to that, and with clear results in terms of differences in perceived playability.

You are free to believe what you want, I respect that, but I would consider things again.


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Re: 1ms challenge
Abdol #2919805 12/04/19 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Thanks, but this topic is already a bit too polemic, and I've already taken/posted one of many available online tests here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ever-use-a-vsti-anymore.html#Post2919535

I don't have anything to personally prove, my point is just that I do believe people (and not just an anointed few) can perceive much smaller timing differences than some were claiming in the thread.


The only reason I do well in the 1ms test (10/10) is because the two samples sound different to me, and then I can easily associate the label (sync, delay) to the sound I hear. However, it doesn't mean that I can tell if there is a delay or two separate sounds. I think the high hat sound comes second, so I perceive it to have a higher pitch, making it easy to recognize vs the bass sound. If I listen to the 100ms delay, then yes, I would say I hear two different sounds.


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