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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2919646 12/04/19 10:15 AM
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Here are some things that have helped me with Bach:

Decide on a fingering early and stick to it - don't keep changing it.
Go ahead and think vertically at first, hands together. Yes, there are different horizontal lines in inventions and fugues and so forth, but you can think about that later, after you get it in your fingers.
Learn some scales in contrary motion.
Learn some scales playing legato in one hand and staccato in the other, then swap hands.
Do the same thing with arpeggios.

And be careful about progressing to harder pieces too soon.

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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2919648 12/04/19 10:27 AM
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When I visited my Father in Australia he was playing Bach pieces from my old lesson book, called The Children's Bach. Don't confuse it with a novel by the same name.

The pieces are mostly a selection from Anna Magdalena's Notebook but also other sources. I recognised pretty much everything my father played as something I learnt as a child, scanning the book I recognised there are some lovely pieces there. There is enough Bach content even at the lower levels that you should not have to learn something that leaves you cold. There is however a lot of Bach that does leave me cold, so I do know that feeling.

The Children's Bach still seems to be for sale in Australia but I can't find a retailer that provides a list of the pieces included in it.

Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2919657 12/04/19 11:17 AM
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J.S. Bach! I will echo everything Ebonykawai said-he s just hard! You are no less of a pianist/musician if you find yourself struggling to learn his music. Clearly he is in a class all by himself. I avoided learning anything by Bach until I got into college-and at that point I had no choice. I never heard Bach s music as -music- in my mind, I heard his music very clearly as equations, finding the modulations and circle of fifths immediately. 47 plus years later, I have acquired an appreciation for Bach s music. I will only play and learn the pieces I like. So, don t beat yourself up. You are in good company my friend.


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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2919769 12/04/19 02:59 PM
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I've been listening to Bach since high school around 1985 (the tri-centenary year of Bach & Handel). The music of Handel's keyboard suites & sonatas are simpler and easier to get into. Unfortunately Bach tends to be more frequently performed because of the technical challenges.

The first & last piece I'd get into is the French Suite #3 Minuet & Trio. In my school days I was in music class playing violin. We did a group project on great composers. This piece was used for the class presentation. I didn't get into playing keyboard until 2 decades later. A lot of Bach's solo violin works are challenging because you're playing chords that you would do easily on a piano / keyboard as broken chords with 3 strings.

Fr. Suite #3 M & T is repetitive. It is a 2-part piece with a Trio section that has 3 parts. The counting in the Minuet is straight-forward with the same note value all the way through like a clock ticking. Besides the counting the fingering isn't too bad. In the beginning I'd just learn the R-part and then fill in the L-part a few measures at a time. Instead of thinking of the L as another melodic line, I'd think of it as filler for accompaniment. When I get into problem playing a section, I'd take the L off and play the R a few times and then slowly put the L part back in. Pieces that have a lot of repeats you have less notes to learn. You can choose to repeat sections in a performance to take up more time.

In the beginning when we're playing a Bach suite, we'd most likely be repeating a section note for note including the added ornaments. When we get to a more advanced level, we'd be playing a repeated section with different ornaments added in so that it wouldn't sound exactly as the first time.

Bach fugues can be challenging because you're playing the same theme repeated a few times in different ways and even in different keys. Besides learning the top line, I'd just read through the notes and learn the finger sequences like muscle memory. I'd take out a phone and record small bits along the way so I can hear if I played a section well enough. In the beginning there would be pieces I'd try a page and put the piece back on the shelf for 6 months to a year before attempting it again. And after playing a few pieces, the learning curve gets much shorter.

Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: earlofmar] #2919770 12/04/19 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by earlofmar


I have been learning a different Bach piece constantly since I started seven years ago. It has never been easy, in fact it has been a nightmare most of the time.


This made my day in a way that is impossible in the non-musician world, LOL.


Lisa

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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2919777 12/04/19 03:23 PM
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Bach is hard. The hard pieces never get easier.

It's not just the polyphony, it's the awkward fingerings. For those with small hands Bach is just about impossible.

I can't play Bach worth a darn. But I keep trying. Bach's music is too incredible to avoid. I find much of the WTC a poor fit for the modern grand piano; the Bach Toccatas tend to be more "pianistic." The Goldberg Variations are on my bucket list and they highlight the other element that makes Bach so hard: the profound musicality Bach puts in his works. No matter how deep you dig, there is still more to get.

Piano students know intuitively to avoid Liszt etudes, they are too hard. But that intuition is oddly missing when it comes to Bach. I feel I need skills necessary for Liszt to tackle Bach.


"the lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." -- Chaucer.
Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2919910 12/04/19 10:21 PM
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This is a fascinating thread, with a lot of good comments, already... but here;s my two-cent’s worth.
J.S. Bach IS difficult, no matter how easy and beautiful it sounds. One of my dear teachers pointed out that many pianists really don’t perform a lot of Bach’s pieces because they are actually a lot harder than they sound (when played well).
They are also incredibly good learning material. A lot of the great pianists (including Chopin) had a very sound Bach grounding. I personally find Bach’s works more useful and a lot more enjoyable than any etudes or exercises and I believe I get a lot more out of them. One of my teachers, many years ago had me take a short two or three-voice piece and then alternatively play and sing each voice in turn; upon which she made me play the whole thing and it DID sound a lot better. I would only recommend patience and careful study. My sense is that The learning process will repay richly in all your other work.


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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2919962 12/05/19 01:44 AM
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There are 3 pieces that are for starters:
1. The Prelude in C from the Well-Tempered Clavier
2. Minuet III in G, BWV 822
3. Bourrée in Em from Lute Suite #1 BWV 996

The Prelude in C from the WTC is common like the Beethoven Für Elise. Once you learn the simple pattern of holding down the first 2 notes and playing the other 6 on top, the whole piece is this way all the way down like a piano exercise. Nonetheless the intro piece of the WTC has Bach's name on it. Once I heard a young man performed this piece in a funeral and thought it was rather inappropriate for the occasion. He was in Suzuki piano. This was 1 of the few pieces he knew and nobody made a fuss about it.

The second piece is found in Suzuki violin & piano for students. The piece is Minuet III meaning there are 2 other Minuets before it but students would only play Minuet III (usually labeled in a student repertoire book as just Minuet without the #3). Once someone posted an online video of himself performing this piece. He said that the piece was 1 of the pieces from the Notebook for Anna Magdalena which are usually attributed to other composers including the popular Minuet in G & Gm now attributed to Christian Petzold instead of Bach. As far as I'm concerned, the Minuet III does have a BWV # (822) so it is a legit Bach piece.

The third piece is found in the repertoire book "First Lessons in Bach". Some of the pieces in the book are from the Notebook for Anna M and not attributed to Bach. The Bourrée in Em is a legit Bach piece. It is in the book labeled as "First Lessons" meaning this is 1 of the easier Bach pieces for students who had never played Bach before. There are also Classical guitar performances of the Bach Lute Suites.

The reason I mentioned these 3 in particular is that they are pieces piano students would have come across and played before. Of course there are more advanced pieces including Inventions, fugues, suites, sonatas & concertos including the Italian Concerto in F. At a slower tempo, the 1st & 2nd movements of the Italian Concerto isn't too bad.

I once got into playing the Counterpoint Fugue #1. It is the last piece I'd learn to play. With the BWV #1080, it is from the last set of fugues & canons that Bach wrote before he died. The last movement which Bach never finished ended abruptly. These pieces were written for an organ and Carl Czerny rewrote them for piano. The Fugue #1 isn't too bad to learn. Have to admit I tried to sight-read the piece in the beginning and put the piece with 4 pages back on the shelf for half a year before trying to learn it again. Soon after I was sitting in front of a street piano playing the Fugue #1 from memory after a young man performed Scott Joplin's "Maple Leaf Rag" also from memory.

Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2920006 12/05/19 04:49 AM
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I could happily play the C Major Prelude every day for the rest of my life and not grow tired of it. It is a perfect little piece. I’ve heard it countless times, and yet it is always a delight to hear it again.

I play it with pedal in order to sustain those bass notes. Some people would say that the pedal should not be used when playing Bach. Others would say that we should not play Bach on the piano. Let us ignore these people, as they would force us to give up expressiveness, in the first case, and require us to buy harpsichords, in the second case.

Last edited by LarryK; 12/05/19 04:51 AM.

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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: LarryK] #2920019 12/05/19 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Some people would say that the pedal should not be used when playing Bach. Others would say that we should not play Bach on the piano. Let us ignore these people, as they would force us to give up expressiveness, in the first case, and require us to buy harpsichords, in the second case.

I thought that was the point of finger legato? Didn't Bach use finger legato?

Did Glenn Gould use the pedal? Or András Schiff? Or did/do they use finger legato?


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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2920050 12/05/19 07:18 AM
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Some people believe Bach should be played without feel. Because they had a grand-grand-grand-...mother who had a cousin who swore Bach played like a robot.

Does Bach get easier? Well, unfortunately not. I started with Bach 25 years ago and I still struggle, it didn't get easier at all...

Last edited by CyberGene; 12/05/19 07:18 AM.

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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2920052 12/05/19 07:28 AM
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Bach is a totally different way of using the fingers. Hard to explain but they reach out, bend and stretch. In later music the fingers are more part of the hand. Can take years to 'click'.

Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2920053 12/05/19 07:33 AM
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I've read somewhere analysis of Bach's bones indicated he had enormous hands. Might explain how he managed to play his stuff. Or could be fake news.


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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: CyberGene] #2920055 12/05/19 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I've read somewhere analysis of Bach's bones indicated he had enormous hands. Might explain how he managed to play his stuff. Or could be fake news.


I had never heard this so I did a little internet snooping. Indeed, analysis of his skeleton showed he could reach a 12th
National Geographic- Bach anatomy

Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: dogperson] #2920060 12/05/19 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I've read somewhere analysis of Bach's bones indicated he had enormous hands. Might explain how he managed to play his stuff. Or could be fake news.


I had never heard this so I did a little internet snooping. Indeed, analysis of his skeleton showed he could reach a 12th
National Geographic- Bach anatomy

Awesome, thanks!


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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2920068 12/05/19 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop


I thought that was the point of finger legato? Didn't Bach use finger legato?

Did Glenn Gould use the pedal? Or András Schiff? Or did/do they use finger legato?


Schiff is using finger pedaling, from what I can hear. The effect is different from using the pedal as you can decide how much overlap between the sequence of notes. When using the pedal, in particular if you do not shift every half bar, the result is more denser, more romantic (typical of the phrasing of Czerny, Busoni, ...). The finger pedaling gives a more cleaner sound. It is a matter of personal choice of interpretation.

Gould is doing a mixed articulation (at least in the early recording I have): finger pedaling on the first arpegio and detached/staccato on the second; which is unlikely what Bach intended as he would have indicated a shift of articulation if he wanted so, but that's Gould ...
The result is a little too hashed for me.

Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: Sidokar] #2920076 12/05/19 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop


I thought that was the point of finger legato? Didn't Bach use finger legato?

Did Glenn Gould use the pedal? Or András Schiff? Or did/do they use finger legato?


Schiff is using finger pedaling, from what I can hear. The effect is different from using the pedal as you can decide how much overlap between the sequence of notes. When using the pedal, in particular if you do not shift every half bar, the result is more denser, more romantic (typical of the phrasing of Czerny, Busoni, ...). The finger pedaling gives a more cleaner sound. It is a matter of personal choice of interpretation.

Gould is doing a mixed articulation (at least in the early recording I have): finger pedaling on the first arpegio and detached/staccato on the second; which is unlikely what Bach intended as he would have indicated a shift of articulation if he wanted so, but that's Gould ...
The result is a little too hashed for me.


My teacher favors a romantic interpretation and so the use of the pedal is allowed, and is actually encouraged. Yes, I know that Schiff does not use the pedal and says in one interview that the pedal is only necessary in a few measures of Bach. In life, we get to choose.

My teacher is not a fan of Gould’s staccato playing and is able to perform a wicked parody of his Goldberg. I see her point, and after hearing her parody, I don’t want to sound like that.

I’m working on the Siloti transcription of a Bach Prelude, the B minor I mentioned above, in which the pedal is necessary to sustain certain notes in the right hand. Listen to Gilels play it, it was one of his favorite encores.

I think my teacher wants to avoid a doctrinaire approach with regards to the pedal. To heck with the historically accurate crowd. Bach never owned a piano. We should decide how we want to play the music, with good taste, of course.

Can the sostenuto pedal be used to good effect? I haven’t tried that.


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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2920084 12/05/19 09:00 AM
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Do you think Bach would care how his music is played on a modern piano? He used to improvise a lot, there are sections where he just wrote a chord but it's expected that the performer arpeggiates it and improvises. Back in the time there was almost no "pure performer" job. Musicians were both composers and improvisers. The harpsichord is no more. How would have Bach played his compositions on a piano? He actually had some of the first fortepianos at the end of his life but imagine for a moment that he got access to a modern piano. Of course he might have composed in a different genre and play stylistically different music but how would he play his existing pieces? Yes, he can say "but that's for a harpsichord, I can't play it on a piano", but do you really believe he would answer that? wink Would he try to play it on a wonderful piano by trying to emulate a harpsichord? wink I don't believe so. Everyone should play Bach as he wishes. With pedal, without pedal, finger pedaling, staccato, legato, rubato, romantic style... Whatever suits you smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 12/05/19 09:01 AM.

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Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: Sidokar] #2920091 12/05/19 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
[
Schiff is using finger pedaling, from what I can hear. The effect is different from using the pedal as you can decide how much overlap between the sequence of notes. When using the pedal, in particular if you do not shift every half bar, the result is more denser, more romantic (typical of the phrasing of Czerny, Busoni, ...). The finger pedaling gives a more cleaner sound. It is a matter of personal choice of interpretation.

Gould is doing a mixed articulation (at least in the early recording I have): finger pedaling on the first arpegio and detached/staccato on the second; which is unlikely what Bach intended as he would have indicated a shift of articulation if he wanted so, but that's Gould ...
The result is a little too hashed for me.


In C Major Prelude I do a mixture of finger and actual pedalling. I hold the first 2 notes played with left hand down without the pedal. When I reach the top note for the first time I use the pedal and hold it until the the second time I hit the top note and then release the pedal. I've no idea of the appropriateness but I like the effect.

Last edited by KevinM; 12/05/19 09:10 AM.
Re: Does Bach ever get easier? [Re: wolfpaw] #2920099 12/05/19 09:21 AM
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The first prelude contains only arpeggiated chords. The only difference between doing some type of finger pedaling (e.g. holding the first two notes with the fingers) and regular foot-pedaling would be the damper-resonance that you can hear in the latter case. Why would that be bad? smile Or why would any pedaling be bad compared to e.g. no-pedal staccato playing that tries to imitate harpsichord? I love HIP but if it's HIP let be HIP all the way: use a harpsichord, make it well-tempered (not ET) and try to play how researchers believe harpsichords were played. However translating that to pianos is wrong IMO.


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