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Re: Pianos in america [Re: BruceD] #2918322 11/30/19 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
[...]
There was also implied in the email message that regulation of the piano should be a separate service to tuning ?
Technicians have been suggested but I do not think they are registered piano technicians which
I know the head technician is.He is capable but the dealer tends to limit thier time to tuning unless
you pay for more ?


That "suggestion" makes sense. If the appointment made by the dealer covers tuning, then it is a time-limited appointment. Regulation (and voicing) can require considerably more time than a straightforward tuning; it stands to reason, and it's good business sense, that it would cost more. If regulation is required, that would have to be determined in advance so that the technician knows how much time to allow for such service. Presumably, if it's the same technician who already knows the piano, s/he would know fairly clearly how much time to allow - and to bill for - in advance.

Regards,

Yes sure one understands that. The dealer seems to have 3 grades of tuners/technicians.At the top is the head technician,then you get reasonably good tuner /technicians (not RPT) then you get just tuners.
For me to arrange a tuning I do not actually get to speak to the tuner/technician to do touch up regulation/voicing .
The head technician charges $300 CAD for a tuning .If I hire him for this special tuning service ,
perhaps he will do extra touch up regulation and voicing or perhaps not.English not being his best
language makes communication even more difficult ?
When I phoned about my last tuning I asked the woman about touch up regulation and voicing and
the person just just said no regulation was a different service and would cost $500 CAD.
So obviously I am prepared to pay ! What I would like to know what is best for a 18 month owned
European piano ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 11/30/19 07:39 PM. Reason: Missing word
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Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2918344 11/30/19 08:32 PM
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Just to say I did not expect touch up regulation with the warranty service
It could be a response of my questions to the lady who books the tuning about when
the piano is being tuned why no extra checking of regulation or voicing never takes place.
I do not know.(yes I would pay extra )
This is the first time (if we exclude the new Yamaha U1, shortly traded in)that I have ever
bought a new piano.So how can I know what the best thing to do is ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 11/30/19 08:34 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Pianos in america [Re: Lady Bird] #2918377 11/30/19 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
[...]
There was also implied in the email message that regulation of the piano should be a separate service to tuning ?
Technicians have been suggested but I do not think they are registered piano technicians which
I know the head technician is.He is capable but the dealer tends to limit thier time to tuning unless
you pay for more ?


That "suggestion" makes sense. If the appointment made by the dealer covers tuning, then it is a time-limited appointment. Regulation (and voicing) can require considerably more time than a straightforward tuning; it stands to reason, and it's good business sense, that it would cost more. If regulation is required, that would have to be determined in advance so that the technician knows how much time to allow for such service. Presumably, if it's the same technician who already knows the piano, s/he would know fairly clearly how much time to allow - and to bill for - in advance.

Regards,

Yes sure one understands that. The dealer seems to have 3 grades of tuners/technicians.At the top is the head technician,then you get reasonably good tuner /technicians (not RPT) then you get just tuners.
For me to arrange a tuning I do not actually get to speak to the tuner/technician to do touch up regulation/voicing .
The head technician charges $300 CAD for a tuning .If I hire him for this special tuning service ,
perhaps he will do extra touch up regulation and voicing or perhaps not.English not being his best
language makes communication even more difficult ?
When I phoned about my last tuning I asked the woman about touch up regulation and voicing and
the person just just said no regulation was a different service and would cost $500 CAD.
So obviously I am prepared to pay ! What I would like to know what is best for a 18 month owned
European piano ?


Have you thought about using an independent tuner/technician instead of one of the ones from the dealership? The rates you are quoting seem very high to me, certainly nothing near what I pay for the superior services my technician gives my piano.

Moreover, how is it possible to be quoted $500.00 for regulation when the person booking the appointment has no idea what regulation nor how much regulation needs to be done? The price of regulation or voicing should be based on how much needs to be done and how much time is spent doing that work. That should be determined by the technician doing the job, not by an office employee quoting from a fixed-rate chart.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2918401 12/01/19 12:13 AM
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The piano is fine ,perhaps a slight voicing on the higher notes ?
Yes an independent technician has been thought about ,even mediated upon.
Recent events do blur things however.
The technician I would choose would have to be RPT.
Of course I am worried about hurting the 2 people who have worked on my piano.
The head technician is also concert technician and is very good.It is true they are
controlled by the dealer however.if ever any serious warranty work is needed
(which I doubt),then there could be problem ?
I need to somehow resolve this problem early next year in some way.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 12/01/19 12:16 AM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Pianos in america [Re: Lady Bird] #2918422 12/01/19 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
The piano is fine ,perhaps a slight voicing on the higher notes ?
Yes an independent technician has been thought about ,even mediated upon.
Recent events do blur things however.
The technician I would choose would have to be RPT.
Of course I am worried about hurting the 2 people who have worked on my piano.
The head technician is also concert technician and is very good.It is true they are
controlled by the dealer however.if ever any serious warranty work is needed
(which I doubt),then there could be problem ?
I need to somehow resolve this problem early next year in some way.


Just as a point of information:

In my case, the warranty on my Estonia was not issued by the dealer, but by the Estonia Piano Company. When I needed a part replaced during the warranty period, it was Estonia who shipped the part free of charge to me and it was my technician who installed it.

I presume that your warranty is with Sauter, so whoever your turner/technician is who might have to do warranty work, your warranty should be covered by the manufacturer not the dealer unless you have a warranty agreement with the dealer. If your dealer is the authorized Sauter dealer in Vancouver, Sauter might require the dealer to carry out the work under the warranty.

I don't think that you would have to continue to use the dealer's tuners/technicians just to assure that warranty work (if it is ever needed during the warranty period) is done under the conditions of the warranty.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2918431 12/01/19 02:54 AM
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Thanks Bruce ,That does help.Yes 5 years are by Sauter and another 5 by the dealer.
But as you say that should not bind me to using the dealers technician.
So one day I need to just really go about getting the new technician -- soon !

Re: Pianos in america [Re: BruceD] #2918490 12/01/19 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
The piano is fine ,perhaps a slight voicing on the higher notes ?
Yes an independent technician has been thought about ,even mediated upon.
Recent events do blur things however.
The technician I would choose would have to be RPT.
Of course I am worried about hurting the 2 people who have worked on my piano.
The head technician is also concert technician and is very good.It is true they are
controlled by the dealer however.if ever any serious warranty work is needed
(which I doubt),then there could be problem ?
I need to somehow resolve this problem early next year in some way.


Just as a point of information:

In my case, the warranty on my Estonia was not issued by the dealer, but by the Estonia Piano Company. When I needed a part replaced during the warranty period, it was Estonia who shipped the part free of charge to me and it was my technician who installed it.

I presume that your warranty is with Sauter, so whoever your turner/technician is who might have to do warranty work, your warranty should be covered by the manufacturer not the dealer unless you have a warranty agreement with the dealer. If your dealer is the authorized Sauter dealer in Vancouver, Sauter might require the dealer to carry out the work under the warranty.

I don't think that you would have to continue to use the dealer's tuners/technicians just to assure that warranty work (if it is ever needed during the warranty period) is done under the conditions of the warranty.

Regards,


Yes. That is the same way it works with my Estonia and both my Yamaha pianos. I have so far Thank God not needed any warranty work ever done on any of my pianos, even the little Baldwin. Plus my tech is authorized to work on all my pianos since he did do most of the prep work for the Yamaha dealer for the first 5 years the shop was opened.
As I understand it, but could easily be wrong, it’s the dealership that’s responsible for seeing the warranty work done. They will order the parts and contact the piano maker about any required warranty work, so it’s pretty imperative that the dealer is on the up and up. Plus, since I’m offered a lifetime trade in policy, if one of my pianos didn’t perform to my expectations, I’d just trade it in for something that would.


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Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2918679 12/01/19 05:18 PM
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I cannot imagine I would need serious warranty work.The sostenuto pedal is fine againThere was once a buzz but it was corrected it or it disappeared.A few weeks later the technician arrived and gave me a carefully wrapped piano string from Sauter ?(the string could be replaced ?) I actually keep it in a drawer because the buzz has disappeared.
The buzz could have come from something else ?
So the dealer has been very good. However I agree with Bruce I should try one of the excellent
technicians that are available to North Vancouver.

Re: Pianos in america [Re: Lady Bird] #2918682 12/01/19 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I cannot imagine I would need serious warranty work.The sostenuto pedal is fine againThere was once a buzz but it was corrected it or it disappeared.A few weeks later the technician arrived and gave me a carefully wrapped piano string from Sauter ?(the string could be replaced ?) I actually keep it in a drawer because the buzz has disappeared.
The buzz could have come from something else ?
So the dealer has been very good. However I agree with Bruce I should try one of the excellent
technicians that are available to North Vancouver.


Hello Lady Bird,

What was wrong with the sostenuto pedal? Do you feel it is worth having? Would any tech be able to fix and regulate it?


Yamaha U1 Silent Piano
Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2918686 12/01/19 05:39 PM
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The pedal is fine again LarryK .,I do not know the details about what the problem was.,
something about a screw needing to be tightened ? The sostenuto in Sauter pianos are
made by Renner as is the action.
But to answer your question yes the sostenuto on Sauter uprights are fine.I have used
it since so yes it's functioning well.
Are still planning on getting a MC122 ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 12/01/19 05:41 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Pianos in america [Re: Lady Bird] #2918691 12/01/19 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
The pedal is fine again LarryK .,I do not know the details about what the problem was.,
something about a screw needing to be tightened ? The sostenuto in Sauter pianos are
made by Renner as is the action.
But to answer your question yes the sostenuto on Sauter uprights are fine.I have used
it since so yes it's functioning well.
Are still planning on getting a MC122 ?


Hard to say, I’m still mulling it over. I like the idea of buying a forever piano. smile


Yamaha U1 Silent Piano
Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2918770 12/01/19 08:55 PM
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j&j, thanks for your question.

How one determines whether a touch is heavy or light is not as simple as the standard practice of measuring the gram resistance to first, slow movement down of the key and first up movement of a depressed key.

The significant factor to how an action feels when you play music are the inertial properties felt when moving the key at various playable speeds.

PW's own ROY123 has done some of the best work on explaining in accurate but simple terms what inertial influences are most significant. Chiefly it is the mass of the hammer and how far out on the shank it is mounted. The front key leads are a distant but still significant factor. More so on the key return than on the down-stroke.

Starting in 1979 I began an orderly process to derive a tone regulation process that would result in consistent, highest quality feel and sound. An integrated process that incorporates feedback loops to control the important factors. I named this process LightHammer Tone Regulation, )LHTR) and published a book titled The Educated Piano is built around LHTR but also contains other service topics missing, or poorly, or wrongly covered in existing literature.

Many technicians have incorporated my findings into their practice. But piano manufacturers have for the most part remained blithely ignorant. Manufacturers have almost no real R&D covering tone and touch quality. Especially how longevity under professional use figures into everything.

So a lighter hammer produces more dynamic range because it damps the string less. But the spring rate of the felt must be in the proper range to make for the full spectrum of tone color change musicians desire in great piano tone. Lighter hammers also wear much slower and resist rapid brightening from use.

So as to whether lighter hammers make the touch lighter the answer is it depends. The finest touch feels resistant enough when played softly that the keys can hold your fingers up slightly so one can relax. But when attacked forcefully, move with no real resistance. Plus the keys returns fast enough they will help lift the relaxed finger.

All this makes for a very easy playing experience where you can concentrate on getting to the notes you want in time and determine how loud the note will be almost immediately upon touching the key.


Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 12/01/19 08:57 PM. Reason: typos

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Re: Pianos in america [Re: BruceD] #2919418 12/03/19 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Other than regular tuning, I'm not convinced a piano that has been reasonably well prepped by the dealer needs much regulation and voicing. I have an around l2 year old Mason & Hamlin BB. I also have a tech who is nationally known and admired. He does some touch up voicing and regulation on some of his tuning visits, but despite my bringing it up many times has never said my piano needs major voicing or regulation. Of course, if one doesn't like the voicing or touch of one's piano or plays many hours most days, that's a different story.


I'm not surprised to hear that. Good factory & dealer prep + frequent small adjustments is totally the way to go. You get a lot better value for your money vs. letting it go to crap and then having to do major adjustments. Good for you for taking such fine care of your instrument smile

Originally Posted by BruceD

Moreover, how is it possible to be quoted $500.00 for regulation when the person booking the appointment has no idea what regulation nor how much regulation needs to be done? The price of regulation or voicing should be based on how much needs to be done and how much time is spent doing that work. That should be determined by the technician doing the job, not by an office employee quoting from a fixed-rate chart.


I basically agree, although I would stop short of saying the dealer is doing anything wrong. If anything, the traditional service model seems to be having a prices for "major" regulation and "minor" or "fine" regulation -- "major" being where you know you're going to have to adjust every single note and then go back for a fine pass, and "minor" being where things are pretty close to begin with and you're just making small adjustments to the notes that need it. Based on the amount quoted compared to their tuning fee, I'm pretty sure LadyBird's dealership was assuming just a "minor" regulation.

This business model makes a lot of sense for a company with multiple techs and a large client base, because it helps ensure consistency of pricing -- even if in theory some people are getting a better or worse deal based on exactly how much work their piano needed. While having the technician do the smallest possible adjustments at each tuning is ideal, there's really nothing wrong with waiting a little bit longer between minor regulations, assuming normal household playing. Just don't put it off for years until it's way out, or the regulation won't be as stable. Same goes for voicing.


Nathan Monteleone
Piano Technician / Amateur Rebuilder
PTG Registered Piano Technician

My pianos (in various states of rebuild):
- 1900 Mason and Hamlin AA
- 1911 J&C Fischer 6'2" grand
- 1935 Story and Clark vertical
Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2919491 12/03/19 05:48 PM
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Nathan,
So I know this is a tricky question but do you suggest that I just have this "minor" regulation with the dealers head technician ? ($500CAD) We will have had this Sauter piano for 2 years in April next
year .The instrument was well prepared when we received it and it is not played that much.
Although the young woman who tunes the piano is not a RPT she is an Associate of the Guild and
working towards that qualification.They have both shown a fair a amount of commitment to thier
thier work.

Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2919537 12/03/19 10:36 PM
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Since I have had such a long career, I have watched how pianos change with use and conditions. In regarding vertical pianos, it has become abundantly keeping the regulation so the lost motion is never allowed to become more than a 1mm or 2, keeps destructive wear on the hammer butts down by a huge amount.

If the lost motion is excessive, the jack gets moving so fast before it engages the butt that the leather is just hammered to death.


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Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2919540 12/03/19 10:45 PM
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Ed,
That is something good to know !.,Thank you !

Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2920744 12/07/19 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Nathan,
So I know this is a tricky question but do you suggest that I just have this "minor" regulation with the dealers head technician ? ($500CAD) We will have had this Sauter piano for 2 years in April next
year .The instrument was well prepared when we received it and it is not played that much.
Although the young woman who tunes the piano is not a RPT she is an Associate of the Guild and
working towards that qualification.They have both shown a fair a amount of commitment to thier
thier work.


It's hard to say without seeing the piano, although after 2 years of light use it's probably still ok. If your current tuner is working RPT she might know enough already to give you a better idea (vertical regulation is part of the exam)...

Last edited by Nathan M., RPT; 12/07/19 05:45 PM.

Nathan Monteleone
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My pianos (in various states of rebuild):
- 1900 Mason and Hamlin AA
- 1911 J&C Fischer 6'2" grand
- 1935 Story and Clark vertical
Re: Pianos in america [Re: Jitin] #2920758 12/07/19 06:42 PM
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Nathan
It would be the head technician who definitely is RPT.
He knows my piano well.The young woman technician only
tunes my piano.
What do you think !

Last edited by Lady Bird; 12/07/19 06:43 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Pianos in america [Re: Lady Bird] #2920794 12/07/19 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Nathan
It would be the head technician who definitely is RPT.
He knows my piano well.The young woman technician only
tunes my piano.
What do you think !


Oh, I mean the young woman technician might be able to tell you if the piano NEEDS regulation, even if she isn't the one who does the job.


Nathan Monteleone
Piano Technician / Amateur Rebuilder
PTG Registered Piano Technician

My pianos (in various states of rebuild):
- 1900 Mason and Hamlin AA
- 1911 J&C Fischer 6'2" grand
- 1935 Story and Clark vertical
Re: Pianos in america [Re: Nathan M., RPT] #2921117 12/08/19 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nathan M., RPT
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Nathan
It would be the head technician who definitely is RPT.
He knows my piano well.The young woman technician only
tunes my piano.
What do you think !


Oh, I mean the young woman technician might be able to tell you if the piano NEEDS regulation, even if she isn't the one who does the job.

Perhaps the decision would have to come from the head technician.If I asked her I am almost sure she would suggest I speak to him ........(.sigh)
I am just trying to know if newish pianos like mine would benefit from a small regulation and voicing?(about 18 months after being bought) Generally speaking?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 12/08/19 11:24 PM. Reason: Missing word
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