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Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 #2919341 12/03/19 09:21 AM
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Dear all,

I have been looking for a piano for my daughter for a while, previous threads here and here

Now I have found 2 choices that I think I would like to buy one from:

(1) A Sauter 118 with R2, from 1979, with 2 years warranty, very good condition, from a small piano shop, price 2400EUR, link. I am going to see the piano on Sunday with my daughter and hopefully a friend who is a pianist.

(2) A Pfeiffer 110, from 1980, good condition, not much played on, 1st hand from a private seller, price 3200EUR, link. I am going to see the piano tomorrow with a piano technician.

Which one would you prefer/recommend?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

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Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2919346 12/03/19 09:42 AM
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Now i don't really know much about the technical aspects of a piano, but as i believe both brands are really good.. to me this choice seems to be a clear case of: get both checked by a technician, and buy the one you like the best and/or is in the best condition.

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2919352 12/03/19 09:59 AM
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Dear Tony,
Both are great contenders. I prefer Sauter, and I have played many new and old versions of both brands.
If I were you, I'd have a technician look at both of them. Pianists and teachers usually have strong opinions about what they *like*, but know nothing about the "innards".


Cathy Harl - former piano dealer and tech.
Currently making and designing jewelry.
Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2919362 12/03/19 10:34 AM
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I echo catlady’s and U3’s response. I know very little about Pfeiffer pianos but we have several members of this Forum that own Sauter uprights and that. love their sound and quality upright action.


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Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2919363 12/03/19 10:38 AM
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Take the Sauter: it will have a Renner action and a better sound than the rather small Pfeiffer with only 110 cm. You get more for less money.

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Pianist685] #2919395 12/03/19 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianist685
Take the Sauter: it will have a Renner action and a better sound than the rather small Pfeiffer with only 110 cm. You get more for less money.

True the Sauter is taller and they are wonderful instruments which produce a beautiful tone.See what
the pianist thinks because condition is everything.
I hope it all goes well.

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2919502 12/03/19 06:37 PM
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Hello Tony !
As I have said to you in the previous thread that, since you live in Germany with a little research and patience you will find a good used piano from a private party. And here you come up with a Sauter and a Pfeiffer. Houurrah! I have to second Ladybird about the Sauter, if its turns out to be in good condition after being examined by a technician. If so you will not be disappointed. Good luck.


VuongMinh Duc
Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2919993 12/05/19 04:19 AM
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update: yesterday I went to see the Pfeiffer with a piano technician. The piano is very little played on, everything inside looks almost like new. It has never been repaired since the original purchase. However there were 3 hammers where the felt was falling apart from wooden part. The piano technician said that this is a very top piano, however he is surprised that the hammer felt was falling of, and is concerned that the same problem can happen to the next hammers as well. It was a bit disappointing, I hope the Sauter will be better.

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2920138 12/05/19 10:39 AM
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If it's just the hammers and the rest of the piano is fine, why don't you get a quote for a new set of hammers?

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2920246 12/05/19 04:06 PM
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Try the Sauter you could be happily surprised.If this does not
work out then you could do as Joe80 suggests.It would push
the price up however.(having new hammers put on the Pfeiffer).
The hammers would have to be voiced as well.

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: joe80] #2920346 12/06/19 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by joe80
If it's just the hammers and the rest of the piano is fine, why don't you get a quote for a new set of hammers?

I did; it costs about 2000 EUR to replace the hammers.

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2920392 12/06/19 11:08 AM
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Which would bring the price of the piano to 5200 EUR, and the piano might not be worth that in the end.... Yes I see your point. For that money I'd rather get something else!

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2920425 12/06/19 02:15 PM
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I have never heard of hammers on any piano falling apart ?
Some technician has perhaps been using a table fork to "needle "
the hammers?

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Lady Bird] #2920444 12/06/19 05:28 PM
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Lady Bird, you are right. I had an upright Steinway made in 1980 and almost 40 years later the hammers, despite being grooved from daily use, were still in good condition.


VuongMinh Duc
Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2920457 12/06/19 06:13 PM
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Hi Tony,
I am familiar with that Sauter model (that specific vintage). Those are very good uprights; touch and tone are very solid.
Have an independent technician check the piano, just because of the age.
Regards,


San Mateo Piano
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Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2920473 12/06/19 07:10 PM
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All the modern Sauter models I have ever tried have been wonderful ! (both here and in Europe )

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2920748 12/07/19 05:49 PM
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Quote
. However there were 3 hammers where the felt was falling apart from wooden part.


To me this is an incorrect statement. Hammers don't "fall apart" from within the hammer structure. Or loosening from their shanks. It would mean the hammer glue is coming loose, something that can only happen if piano was in the orient or exposed to extremely high humidity. Perhaps there's something about the background of the piano not revealed to you. No shop I ever visited in Germany would ever sell such piano. Let's not forget all German manufacturers use and used only top grade German made hammers. Wonder who your tech was and what he really meant by making the statement. Something here doesn't seem quite right to me. But of course you still have the Feurich and Sauter as second options. Both great pianos. Hopefully their hammers are not "falling apart"
Best of luck

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 12/07/19 05:55 PM.

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Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2920889 12/08/19 08:21 AM
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Hi all,

we visited the shop to see the Sauter piano today. The piano looks in very good condition, under very close visual inspection it seems to me (a non-pianist) that everything is intact. There were one or two hammers which didn't return fully to the original position after playing, the salesman said that it might be caused by the low temperature in the shop (about 18 degrees celsius, isn't it dangerous for the pianos?). The salesman promised that they would do a small overhaul of the mechanics before shipping, which should take care of the above problem. And piano comes with 2 years warranty. That's from my part.

My friend who is a pianist and who also went the a very similar route to purchase a piano a few years ago came with us today. She said this is a very good piano, and an inspection of independent piano technician is not necessary.

My daughter played the piano for a while and also likes the piano.

So I have decided to buy this one.

Thank you very much for your comments, they are very nice, helpful and encouraging. They helped me a lot to make the uneasy decision.

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Norbert] #2920892 12/08/19 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
Quote
. However there were 3 hammers where the felt was falling apart from wooden part.


To me this is an incorrect statement. Hammers don't "fall apart" from within the hammer structure. Or loosening from their shanks. It would mean the hammer glue is coming loose, something that can only happen if piano was in the orient or exposed to extremely high humidity. Perhaps there's something about the background of the piano not revealed to you. No shop I ever visited in Germany would ever sell such piano. Let's not forget all German manufacturers use and used only top grade German made hammers. Wonder who your tech was and what he really meant by making the statement. Something here doesn't seem quite right to me. But of course you still have the Feurich and Sauter as second options. Both great pianos. Hopefully their hammers are not "falling apart"
Best of luck

Norbert


perhaps my previous description is not quite right; I was trying to say that the felt part of the hammer is detached/loosened from the hammer shanks.

The piano technician explained that Renner during certain period used a "wrong" glue that didn't last as much as it should. The problem however showed up only after 20-30 years, and only under certain conditions. This piano is from a private seller, who never opened the cabinet. She inherited the piano from her grandma.

Re: Old german uprights: Sauter 118 R2 vs Pfeiffer 110 [Re: Tony124] #2920894 12/08/19 08:36 AM
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Congratulations on your new to you Sauter upright. A new piano in the home is a wonderful Christmas present. Please post pictures when the Sauter has been delivered. There are several Sauter owners here on PianoWorld who sing the praises of their Sauter’s voice and high quality construction and materials, so I’m confident your family will be thrilled. Congratulations again!


J & J
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