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Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: Burkie] #2919206 12/02/19 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by DrGradus
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.

Pivot length (along with static and dynamic key weightings) is the most objective assessment of any piano - if you can measure it then it's not subjective. Which subjective assessment are you referring to?
Numbers are objective, but I haven't seen any definitive table of comparative pivot points or key length with all other parameters. All I see is this "feels" this way and that "feels" that way. Data is (or, are) objective, but how that feels under different fingers is often entirely subjective, especially when differences are measured in millimeters.

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Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2919207 12/02/19 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by DrGradus
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.

Pivot length (along with static and dynamic key weightings) is the most objective assessment of any piano - if you can measure it then it's not subjective. Which subjective assessment are you referring to?
Numbers are objective, but I haven't seen any definitive table of comparative pivot points or key length with all other parameters. All I see is this "feels" this way and that "feels" that way. Data is objective, but how that feels under different fingers is often entirely subjective, especially when measure in millimeters.

Have you tried searching using Google? There are many discussion on this forum showing exact pivot lengths.

I myself invented a device that can measure it - let me know which models you want compared and I'll happily measure pivot length, key weightings across the whole piano, and the dynamic key weightings.

These are 3 of the 4 objective measures I recommend all purchasers be aware of.

The 4th objective measure is key surface grip (friction) - very important for many pianists whose fingers sweat.

I agree that sound and aesthetics are entirely subjective - that's why I always tell prospective buyers to listen to each instrument for themselves.

Last edited by Burkie; 12/02/19 08:32 PM.
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919210 12/02/19 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Burkie
Have you tried searching using Google? There are many discussion on this forum showing exact lengths.
Why, it never occurred to me! Of course I have and in the process found the usual non-conclusive thread here with the usual posturing and I know it's so because I know it's so. It's still subjective, like "Roland rules the field in that price range" opinion.
Originally Posted by Burkie
I myself invented a device that can measure it - let me know which models you want compared and I'll happily measure pivot length, key weightings across the whole piano, and the dynamic key weightings.
Which wouldn't tell me a thing unless I actually played this or that keyboard. That's the point.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2919212 12/02/19 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Burkie
I myself invented a device that can measure it - let me know which models you want compared and I'll happily measure pivot length, key weightings across the whole piano, and the dynamic key weightings.
Which wouldn't tell me a thing unless I actually played this or that keyboard. That's the point.

And where have I ever implied that you or anyone should purchase any piano without playing them first? I have always advised people to play them on several occasions, not just once, before purchasing. Why didn't you bother to verify that before shooting from the hip?

You need to be a lot more careful with your assumptions.

Last edited by Burkie; 12/02/19 08:46 PM.
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919223 12/02/19 09:16 PM
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"Shooting from the hip". Give me a break. You're the one saying there's some objective standard and now you retreat.
Tell ya what...take care and go have fun with your pivot point.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2919236 12/02/19 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by DrGradus
It's amazing that there are far more comments of people fighting each other to defend subjective assessments than anything else. Maybe it is because I am a newbie, but I don't understand what is going on here.

It happens when subjective assessments are presented as unassailable fact, and it happens on just about any forum dedicated to musical instruments associated with classical music. No "serious" musician would use this instrument, even for practice; no serious musician would use these strings or that edition or that rosin or a piano made by that company; this company's products are the best/worst; you must hold your hands this way or that way and sit like this or that, you must have a flute that's made out of silver/gold/platinum with French keys and a B-foot, or you're hopeless; no self-respecting musician would be caught dead with a plastic recorder; if you listen to CDs instead of getting your music via streaming you're a hopeless Luddite, and on and on and on and on. After a while all the fussiness gets tiresome.


have to disagree with your assertion that just about every music forum is like this. I don't see these kind of statements in any ukulele/clarinet/toy piano/celesta/glockenspiel/bass/music theory forum I participate in. I have only seen it in some piano, production, synth, and guitar forums. I understand some people have the perspective of a working/professional concert soloist, but even the professionals in my first list of forum types aren't bull headed and think their opinion is the only right one. Sadly, the ivory tower is real here.

I feel you on the comment that the fussiness gets tiresome. People should focus on the positive that comes with fostering a love of everyone making/learning music without regard to their finances, choice of instrument, or skill level. I was previously guilty of this by suggesting new uke players spend at least 100 dollars for an instrument. I now realize that some people can only afford a 50 dollar instrument, that some people prefer the sound of a plastic instrument, need to have a more durable instrument for outdoor/car playing, or fell in love with the looks of a Kala Dolphin. Realistically, you will get better, play more, and find more joy when playing the instrument that you enjoy playing.

Sorry for fanning the flames, but I had to vent somewhere due to my recent unfavorable interactions with a few of the people in this forum. It hasn't turned me off from loving the instrument, but has made me less likely to participate here and that disappoints me. I love playing music and want to discuss this with like-minded people without things getting heated..


6 years learning the ukulele and started playing toy piano in late July 2019
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2919240 12/02/19 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
"Shooting from the hip". Give me a break. You're the one saying there's some objective standard and now you retreat.

Where exactly have I retreated? Your eyes are deceiving you again - I recommend you take that onboard.

Last edited by Burkie; 12/02/19 10:45 PM.
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919252 12/03/19 12:10 AM
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The change in mechanical advantage across the playable area of the key in all piano actions depends on the length of the key between the outermost point and where it pivots. This applies to all piano actions, and cannot be dependent on any other aspect of the key action design. This is a physical law that cannot be circumvented.

If someone doesn't care about it, that's another matter, but it's an incontrovertible fact.

Last edited by johnstaf; 12/03/19 12:11 AM.
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2919254 12/03/19 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf
have to disagree with your assertion that just about every music forum is like this. I don't see these kind of statements in any ukulele/clarinet/toy piano/celesta/glockenspiel/bass/music theory forum I participate in. I have only seen it in some piano, production, synth, and guitar forums


That‘s really the great thing of a uke compared to the piano: it is far more unassuming. There are no serious uke players. Simply because it‘s the nature of the instrument. Even people like Jake Shimabukuro will probably say: just grab a uke and have fun.

A little OT: I have several ukes. one of them a solid body mahagony concert size. One of them a 20€ super cheapy pink soprano. I almost always play my 20€ pink uke simply because I have it always laying around somewhere. I have the mahagony somewhere out of reach because I don‘t want my kids (3 and 4 years old) to mess with it. But of course it sounds better, Pretty much for the same reason I also almost exclusively play my plastic recorders. But when it comes to recorders, there are also lots of „real wood snobs“.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919259 12/03/19 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf


If someone doesn't care about it, that's another matter, but it's an incontrovertible fact.
If it doesn't bother this player but this other player finds it unplayable, then it means that the effect of that incontrovertible physical fact is subjective.
Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf
have to disagree with your assertion that just about every music forum is like this. I don't see these kind of statements in any ukulele/clarinet/toy piano/celesta/glockenspiel/bass/music theory forum I participate in. I have only seen it in some piano, production, synth, and guitar forums. I understand some people have the perspective of a working/professional concert soloist, but even the professionals in my first list of forum types aren't bull headed and think their opinion is the only right one. Sadly, the ivory tower is real here.
I'll have to say also the cello discussion groups I've participated in aren't all that bad. Flute and guitar, yes. They can be bad. It's more often than not a desire for status. My observation is that the actual pros are less hung up on gear than amateurs. As for uke, glockenspiel, clarinet, celesta, it would probably be a toss up, but I imagine with clarinet especially there'd be debates over grenadilla vs boxwood and don't you dare mention those ghastly things made from ABS...and what's the keywork on yours made of? What about reeds?

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919260 12/03/19 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Gretel
Pretty much for the same reason I also almost exclusively play my plastic recorders. But when it comes to recorders, there are also lots of „real wood snobs“.
grin grin grin I hear you. There are even snobs within the plastic and wood factions. "The only decent plastic ones are Yamahas..." "Well I like my Aulos..." "Aulos is unplayable in the upper register..." grin And then there are the Moeck vs Kung vs Mollenhauer vs the Yamaha woods and of course this one only has those made by Philippe Bolton...it never ends. grin

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919261 12/03/19 01:53 AM
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There are facts:
- The pivot length is a measurable fact.
- Casio happens to have a short pivot just like Yamaha GHS, Fatar TP/100 and others.
- People complain about those too.
- The consistency of the playing feel along the piano key is proportional to the pivot length and it alone say the laws of physics.

Then there are "subjective assessments" trying to fight these facts.

"I don't find it to be a problem" is an okay statement. Good for you. You can comfortably play on keys with short pivot.

But that doesn't make the measurable facts and laws of physics to go away.

smile

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2919262 12/03/19 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
There are facts:
- The pivot length is a measurable fact.
- Casio happens to have a short pivot just like Yamaha GHS, Fatar TP/100 and others.
- People complain about those too.
- The consistency of the playing feel along the piano key is proportional to the pivot length and it alone say the laws of physics.

Then there are "subjective assessments" trying to fight these facts.

"I don't find it to be a problem" is an okay statement. Good for you. You can comfortably play on keys with short pivot.

But that doesn't make the measurable facts and laws of physics to go away.

smile

Yes, well, I must repent then and admit that I'm playing a crap keyboard. Maybe someday I'll go crazy and buy an N1X with an acceptable pivot point and join the cool kids. I've seen the light. grin

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: DrGradus] #2919268 12/03/19 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf
I had to vent somewhere due to my recent unfavorable interactions with a few of the people in this forum. It hasn't turned me off from loving the instrument, but has made me less likely to participate here and that disappoints me. I love playing music and want to discuss this with like-minded people without things getting heated..
I've seen a lot of comments like that here.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2919272 12/03/19 02:38 AM
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but I imagine with clarinet especially there'd be debates over grenadilla vs boxwood and don't you dare mention those ghastly things made from ABS...and what's the keywork on yours made of? What about reeds?


oh most definitely. the pickiest shape their own reeds. laugh


6 years learning the ukulele and started playing toy piano in late July 2019
Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2919274 12/03/19 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen

Yes, well, I must repent then and admit that I'm playing a crap keyboard. Maybe someday I'll go crazy and buy an N1X with an acceptable pivot point and join the cool kids. I've seen the light. grin


That's the first time I've seen your piano model dismissed as crap, even as a joke. grin

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: HarmonySmurf] #2919276 12/03/19 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by HarmonySmurf
but I imagine with clarinet especially there'd be debates over grenadilla vs boxwood and don't you dare mention those ghastly things made from ABS...and what's the keywork on yours made of? What about reeds?


oh most definitely. the pickiest shape their own reeds. laugh

Absolutely, oboists even more so. Unfortunately I'd be one of those schmucks who buys them ready made, and so no doubt there would physics lectures on how that's ...just not done. grin

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2919317 12/03/19 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Numbers are objective, but I haven't seen any definitive table of comparative pivot points or key length with all other parameters.


There has been several discussions here trying to collect the numbers. This one I was able to find easily: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2852613/key-pivot-length.html

There has been more and with comparison pictures.

Typically we don't get any numbers from manufacturers.

Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2919321 12/03/19 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

- Casio happens to have a short pivot just like Yamaha GHS, Fatar TP/100 and others

"I don't find it to be a problem" is an okay statement. Good for you. You can comfortably play on keys with short pivot.
But that doesn't make the measurable facts and laws of physics to go away.
smile


But any pianist would also concede that the currently-being-maligned Casio, Yamaha GHS, and Fatar TP100 actions feel nothing alike, even if they share a similarly short pivot length. This is the danger of using one parameter alone to define whether a piano is good or not. It’s like acoustic piano marketing from 40 years ago, with crafty salespeople grabbing their Ancott guides and proclaiming the length of their #1 bass string longest for a given size of piano. Therefore, their piano was obviously superior.

As you rightly mention, physics, along with packaging and cost are why there’s no free lunch here. People often ask for contradictory things: “I want an action that feels just like an acoustic grand piano and will last 20 years. But it needs to weigh less than 30 pounds, take up a tiny footprint in the room, the action must be silent, and I have a budget of $800”...


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Re: Any budget digital piano close to acoustic feeling? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2919419 12/03/19 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
There has been more and with comparison pictures.


Ha! The one I linked had links to some other pivot-point-obsession discussions:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2734488/all/naked-pics-of-grandtouch-action.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2688852/mp11-grand-feel-key-and-pivot-lengths.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1761142/1.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2711168/kawai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1760698.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2337383/Roland_PHA_vs_lightweight_acti.html

I won't say anything more in this discussion. wink

...except there are some engineers and other technically minded people here who like details, so such discussions just can't be avoided. It's human nature. Or engineer nature.

And what was that analogy between arguing with an engineer and wrestling in mud with a pig?

(I can say that because I'm an engineer myself. Engineers FTW! Or WTF, if you prefer that.)

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