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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2918799 12/01/19 10:21 PM
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Gene, I just think that the soundboard should be approached acoustically rather than as a structure. A lot gets lost. I've heard many pianos with thick ribs, massive cutoff bars, and many other fancy ideas that claim to add longevity. Which by the way you can't really promise. But their sound is not my cup of tea.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2918813 12/01/19 10:49 PM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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So only compression board designers are concerned with acoustics?
Come on Chris, that’s a bit naive.


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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2918990 12/02/19 10:05 AM
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Yes, that is correct Gene,
Check out any writings from any Rib crowned proponents and its about structure only. Check your writings for example, check out your last series of statements.

The acoustic reason Rib crowned boards don't have the same acoustic energy as compression boards is because of whats called Mechanical intensification. Every maker of any acoustic instrument takes, or tries to take advantage of that principle. When the arch is along the grain, tension is used, when across the grain, compression is used. When its a carved arch, a soundpost was needed. Rib crowning is a carved arch.

Rib Crowned guys are essentially making "violins without soundposts".

If you have ever witnessed the tuning fork that is attached to a small piece of spruce demo. Then you would have heard the power of mechanical intensification.


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919009 12/02/19 11:01 AM
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Here's a guy improving the sound of his Cigar Banjo using the principle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqYRifl9IxA


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919022 12/02/19 11:22 AM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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So I make violins and banjos and you make oil cans.
I just can’t take you seriously Chris.
You come across like a used car salesman.


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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: Gene Nelson] #2919093 12/02/19 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
So I make violins and banjos and you make oil cans.
I just can’t take you seriously Chris.
You come across like a used car salesman.


Right on cue. When you lose a factual argument, then you resort to name calling. Just like last time. I'll take your snarky "Used Car Salesman " comment as a badge of honor. Thank You.


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: Chernobieff Piano] #2919134 12/02/19 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
Yes, that is correct Gene,
Check out any writings from any Rib crowned proponents and its about structure only. Check your writings for example, check out your last series of statements.

The acoustic reason Rib crowned boards don't have the same acoustic energy as compression boards is because of whats called Mechanical intensification. Every maker of any acoustic instrument takes, or tries to take advantage of that principle. When the arch is along the grain, tension is used, when across the grain, compression is used. When its a carved arch, a soundpost was needed. Rib crowning is a carved arch.

Rib Crowned guys are essentially making "violins without soundposts".

If you have ever witnessed the tuning fork that is attached to a small piece of spruce demo. Then you would have heard the power of mechanical intensification.


I have to say that I am quite skeptical about what you say in this post. It's interesting to note that Googling ""mechanical intensification" piano" turns up not a thing of which you spoke, so, if every maker of acoustic instruments is using that principal, it must be a secret. Compression crowning increases the stiffness of the soundboard assembly, and so, if a soundboard is equally constructed, but without compression crowning, it will be less stiff, which may result in a reduced quality of sound. I think it's fair to say that one important component of achieving best sound is the stiffness-to-mass ratio of the soundboard as a function of the various positions across the board. No doubt, compression crowning is one way to achieve a desirable result in this regard. However, the idea that it's the only way does not pass the smell test. Also, it has also been conclusively shown, both by calculation and experience, that purely compression-crowned board often do indeed suffer from compression set.

I have been surprised at how weak a piece of sitka spruce soundboard is across the grain--it can be flexed so easily, and its cross-grain strength is also quite low.

Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: Roy123] #2919166 12/02/19 06:15 PM
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[/quote]

I have to say that I am quite skeptical about what you say in this post. It's interesting to note that Googling ""mechanical intensification" piano" turns up not a thing of which you spoke, so, if every maker of acoustic instruments is using that principal, it must be a secret. Compression crowning increases the stiffness of the soundboard assembly, and so, if a soundboard is equally constructed, but without compression crowning, it will be less stiff, which may result in a reduced quality of sound. I think it's fair to say that one important component of achieving best sound is the stiffness-to-mass ratio of the soundboard as a function of the various positions across the board. No doubt, compression crowning is one way to achieve a desirable result in this regard. However, the idea that it's the only way does not pass the smell test. Also, it has also been conclusively shown, both by calculation and experience, that purely compression-crowned board often do indeed suffer from compression set.

I have been surprised at how weak a piece of sitka spruce soundboard is across the grain--it can be flexed so easily, and its cross-grain strength is also quite low.[/quote]

Roy 123,
Something can exist and not be on Google. The acoustic book I studied used the term. If its under another term i'd be interested (Maybe mechanical strain? Or just plain strain?) I did not give you a single cause, but three ways the mechanical phenomena can be achieved.
And what effects of compression study are you referring to that drew that conclusion? Maybe the downbearing was excessive, maybe the piano was near a wood stove for years, maybe the piano soundboard was installed incorrectly. I have a piano in my shop right now that's 60 years old, compression crowned and in near perfect condition. How does that fit in any conclusion? I will be running tests and the numbers on compression and very soon, and see if compression set is even possible in piano soundboards. Of which i am skeptical. The cracks happen when tension occurs, a compression set wouldn't even have to be there at all for the board to crack under certain conditions.


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: Roy123] #2919187 12/02/19 07:04 PM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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Originally Posted by Roy123
Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
Yes, that is correct Gene,
Check out any writings from any Rib crowned proponents and its about structure only. Check your writings for example, check out your last series of statements.

The acoustic reason Rib crowned boards don't have the same acoustic energy as compression boards is because of whats called Mechanical intensification. Every maker of any acoustic instrument takes, or tries to take advantage of that principle. When the arch is along the grain, tension is used, when across the grain, compression is used. When its a carved arch, a soundpost was needed. Rib crowning is a carved arch.

Rib Crowned guys are essentially making "violins without soundposts".

If you have ever witnessed the tuning fork that is attached to a small piece of spruce demo. Then you would have heard the power of mechanical intensification.


I have to say that I am quite skeptical about what you say in this post. It's interesting to note that Googling ""mechanical intensification" piano" turns up not a thing of which you spoke, so, if every maker of acoustic instruments is using that principal, it must be a secret. Compression crowning increases the stiffness of the soundboard assembly, and so, if a soundboard is equally constructed, but without compression crowning, it will be less stiff, which may result in a reduced quality of sound. I think it's fair to say that one important component of achieving best sound is the stiffness-to-mass ratio of the soundboard as a function of the various positions across the board. No doubt, compression crowning is one way to achieve a desirable result in this regard. However, the idea that it's the only way does not pass the smell test. Also, it has also been conclusively shown, both by calculation and experience, that purely compression-crowned board often do indeed suffer from compression set.

I have been surprised at how weak a piece of sitka spruce soundboard is across the grain--it can be flexed so easily, and its cross-grain strength is also quite low.


I can give some design criteria that is common to the different soundboard system designs that I know of: Im certain there are more. Ill lean on the radiused system just a bit more.
First, all tone wood has acoustic properties.
Design factors that could be taken into account include:
How fast sound travels through wood, (specise specific) the moisture content of the species causes internal friction, some people consider soundboard resonance to be a good thing but I disagree, how many grains per inch is important, how thick the board is, the string scale hammers and bridge and getting this energy to the soundboard assembly, the impedance of the the entire soundboard, the mass of the entire soundboard, how stiff and flexible the board is, how much crown the board has, the bearing load on the soundboard assembly, how long the backsclae is, high or low tension scale, the position of the bridges especially the bass bridge and low tenor end of the long bridge. Most bass bridges are glued close to the rim making the board stiffer in that area and this is where flexability is needed. Radiused systems may float the bass to relieve this stiffness.
the different types of designs that I'm aware of are:
Radiused rib crowned, compression crowned and the type that depends on the rim of the piano to support crown, and maybe there are others that combine radiused ribs with some compression.
Then there is the string down bearing and how the soundboard assembly is designed to support it.
Its all about making the soundboard move air efficiently.
If its done with careful engineering and craftsmanship the entire compas will be heard with relatively equal power, tone quality and sustain characteristics.
With a radiused system, the stiffness to mass ratio is carefully controlled and stiffness and flexibility is engineered into the system in a gradual gradation from treble to bass. The ribs support the string bearing load as well as become part of the boards response to input energy from the hammer, string bridge.
The board is somewhat stiff at glue up due to the nature of the wood species, the number and placement of the ribs and the bridge and it increases to desired stiffness after being strung and brought up to pitch.
Compression boards have the stiffness and bearing support more in the board itself as the ribs are designed to restrain the board as it swells and crown is induced somewhere on the board. The ribs tend to resist crown because they are flat sawn. Some designers use the piano rim to help keep the crown in these ribs.
Radiused ribbed boards have specific amount of crown (coordinated with the designed string bearing) imposed exactly where the designer wants it and most of the time its possible to have the apex of the radiused rib directly under the bridge so the bridge can move relatively straight up and down as EMC changes and the board expands or contracts. Also, the strength of the rib is designed to flex a known amount under a known load so that the system is never overloaded and always moves within a controlled range.
Compression boards depend on the cellular structure of the soundboard to support the bearing load and possibly some support from the rim if designed that way.
Then there are other things like - are there verticle hitch pins, are there adjustable plate bolts that allow a designer to fine tune the system - typical on a radiused system.
For all designs there are good and bad results. I don't know of any that have been perfected.
I truly respect all rebuilders that get involved with this sort of work with the desire to create a better musical instrument.
Maybe one day we will have a perfect piano, I kind of doubt it.


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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919208 12/02/19 08:23 PM
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I believe that, though a CC soundboard does in fact enhance the sound, from a manufacturing standpoint, since the process basically violates established principles of longevity in woodworking, the design is recognized to last roughly 30-40 years. Some will last longer under super ideal conditions, others shorter if abused and neglected, but on average 30-40 years seems to me to be the time when fatigue, stress, environmental changes, etc make the assembly "fail" in the sense of no longer being able to function at anywhere near peak capacity. Yes, it "works" but not like it used to (assuming of course it was well made to begin with).

Planned obsolescence?...I think not. Simply recognition of what wood can take and for how long.

Pwg


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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: P W Grey] #2919222 12/02/19 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I believe that, though a CC soundboard does in fact enhance the sound, from a manufacturing standpoint, since the process basically violates established principles of longevity in woodworking, the design is recognized to last roughly 30-40 years. Some will last longer under super ideal conditions, others shorter if abused and neglected, but on average 30-40 years seems to me to be the time when fatigue, stress, environmental changes, etc make the assembly "fail" in the sense of no longer being able to function at anywhere near peak capacity. Yes, it "works" but not like it used to (assuming of course it was well made to begin with).
g


Greetings,
Hmm, logic and engineering can only go so far. Big data often usurps the apparently evident, and I have to say, the big data on piano soundboards over the last 150 years has demonstrated a large percentage of pianists are attracted to whatever Steinway has going on in that soundboard of theirs. Smoke and mirrors won't keep a tonal fantasy alive forever, there has to be some response, and in my career, I seldom find a more responsive sounding structure than what came out of New York. Not consistent, but the best of the best pianos I have seen had that double S on the fallboard. .

As to building a soundboard that will "last" forever, it is simple, just make everything stronger (and heavier). However, tonal response and longevity are often inversely related and I think the maximum performance from a board is attained when it is sufficiently stressed. This means that the CC soundboard is a "non-durable" part of the piano, just like hammers and dampers,(and to a lesser extent blocks, but I have seen numerous blocks that were in far better condition than the board they were married to.).
I once had a BMW motorcycle with drum brakes. After 120,000 miles, the shoes were still in good condition, but they never performed as well as the softer recovering I had done. The softer stuff made a huge difference in stopping distances, but were worn out in 30,000 miles. I like the shorter-lived version better because it performed better.

Steinway is building boards for maximum performance, not maximum longevity. I have a 1937 M right now that will easily respond as well as a new one, ( or better), and I have seen 10 year old boards in these pianos that were flat and hollow sounding, no matter what I did with the hammers. The CC approach requires great expertise in setting the bearing pressure, and if done poorly, the board will either collapse too soon, or never be stressed enough to speak. If done right, I think they out run most anything else I have seen.
Regards,

Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919234 12/02/19 10:07 PM
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Gene,
Thank you for the explanation.
The way you describe how compression crowned boards work i would say is not accurate. The way you describe it, it would be prone to failure. A flat rib glued on a flat panel then glued in the piano would have a difficult time crowning. Your description makes me think that that is your assumption. I use a radiused caul and the soundboard already has a healthy crown (60,55,50ft) before its glued in, simply by the "shifted" rib/panel glue joints. Then the "controlled"
compression builds to create the highest stiffness to weight ratio. At least that's my rough guideline.

Your description of the RC&S system makes me think of what the grain is doing. After the rib is loaded isn't the grain inverted? An inverted crown with a curve cut on top? There's nothing wrong with that. Julius Bauer used ribs on both sides, i believe they were inverted crowned. I can't comment on their operating principle because I haven'y had one to dissect Yet.

So how do you measure the stiffness to weight ratio in your boards? My understanding is that with so many factors it not really possible with any degree of accuracy.


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919235 12/02/19 10:12 PM
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Ed Foote,
That's how i see it, but you said it better.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
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www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919239 12/02/19 10:35 PM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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“ Compression boards have the stiffness and bearing support more in the board itself as the ribs are designed to restrain the board as it swells and crown is induced somewhere on the board. The ribs tend to resist crown because they are flat sawn.”

That was my statement but I suppose that I need to explain the drying process prior to gluing on the ribs? Followed by exposure to higher moisture?
I assumed that designers understood the compression crowing process but I guess not.
And yes, they are prone to failure.

Radiused ribs tend to have exposed end grain along the radius. But inverted? You may be able to argue that but the FSPL has not been exceeded like the dead inverted compression board that is in my shop. The radiused ribs retain their radius just fine and continue to do what they are designed to do for a very long time.
Your mixing words and design concepts.


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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919241 12/02/19 10:43 PM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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As for the Steinway sound, I’d give more credit to the rim as opposed to the soundboard.


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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919247 12/02/19 11:37 PM
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As for stiffness to mass, if I were a physicist I may be able to develop a formula but it’s doubtful.
Mass includes the bridge and everything on it like pins and screws and buttons even finish, the board itself, the ribs, the finish on the board,
The stiffness; the panel itself has a small amount if it has not experienced compression beyond its elastic limit, the size shape of the bridge and what wood it’s made of, the thickness and grain spacing and grain angle of the board in relation to bridge placement, string bearing pressure, available crown and how it’s supported and how much of it is used up under load, the number and location of ribs and if the rim is rock solid laminated maple it may contribute. Another may be how the ribs are anchored, not all are notched into the rim.
You just need to be aware of what contributes stiffness as the assembly goes together.
Mass is easier.


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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919324 12/03/19 08:14 AM
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Gene you claimed that,
“With a radiused system, the stiffness to mass ratio is carefully controlled and stiffness and flexibility is engineered into the system in a gradual gradation from treble to bass.”

I then ask you,
Gene, How do you measure the stiffness to weight ratio?

Your response was,
“If I were a physicist, I may be able to develop a formula, but it’s doubtful.

If you have no stiffness to weight formula, then how do you carefully control it?

Thanks
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919337 12/03/19 09:08 AM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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You can re-read my last post but I’ll spell it out for you:
Purchase a board of known thickness and grain angle.
Don’t expose it to excessive compressive forces that destroys its elasticity.
Control the EMC when gluing in ribs.
Design the rib system.
Redesign the scale.
Build a new bridge to conform to the new scale.
Set bearing.
String it up and bring it to pitch.
Sometimes weigh components.
Not necessarily in that order.
And it all gets placed glued screwed together and installed carefully
Are you mixing words again?
Careful does dot imply formula.
What’s your motive Chris?
Have you told the OP what your idea of an oil canned board is yet?


Last edited by Gene Nelson; 12/03/19 09:11 AM.

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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919360 12/03/19 10:30 AM
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I don't think you understood the question Gene.

You said the Stiffness to Mass ratio is carefully controlled. You then went on to give definitions of what mass is, and then what stiffness is. But the question is- How do you carefully control the ratio between the two? As you claimed you can do.
Thanks
-Chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2919366 12/03/19 10:57 AM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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And I don’t think you understood my questions.

I have a good idea of what components of the soundboard system contribute to stiffness and place them accordingly/carefully. Mass is easy.

Now tell the op what is your idea of an oil canned board?

What is your motive?
I know you will never do any type of RCS type work because you have previously informed me that your techniques are superior.
That’s why I have difficulty taking you seriously, it’s like you have an unnatural need to prove me wrong and sell your product, analogous to a used car salesman.
Communication with you is difficult, sorry.
If you sincerely want to learn RCS design concepts there are people that teach at conventions and shops that you can apprentice at, like I did.


RPT
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