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(Sorry to spam - my last edit didn't appear):

So bear in mind that there will be an element of modelling on many sampled DPs too, for the purpose of decay/resonances etc - it would be almost impossible to sample every possible combination of notes and resonances.

Does it sound/behave better if it were fully modelled? It's all down to personal preference.


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Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by OscarRamsey

3- Pure Accoustic - Fully Modelled Piano Sounds. Sampled non-piano sounds. Same applies RE polyphony. LX-705/706/708.

However only the LX706 & LX708 have the longer grand-piano-style key actions (there I didn't use the word Hybrid!). So that's why I delivered left it out.


Haha - if only there were strict industry rules for terminology, it might make things easier for prospective buyers.


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Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by pianistje
Originally Posted by CyberGene
FP30 isn’t modeled. I’m a classical pianist and can’t play modeled pianos, so that’s not true. I hope that closes the topic.

Yes you can,...... but you don’t want to.
Or have you secretly set up your N1X with pianoteq ? blush
The irony.......


I think CG's message was tongue in cheek.

Indeed wink

I was responding to that arrogant BS from that certain classical pianist who is definitely a typical Pianoteqie showing a very common ill-informed and biased misinformation about sampled pianos and their inability to suit classical music, or any music at all for that matter. An opinion that’s prevalent among that crowd.

As to FP30 vs P515. They are equally modeled as well as sampled if we call this modeling and that sampling.

Last edited by CyberGene; 11/24/19 08:24 AM.

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Personally, I’ve been blending Pianoteq (modeling) with the P-515 on-board piano (sampled), and I love it.
The speakers on the P-515 are phenomenal considering how small they are. The soundstage is wide, and as a result, the sound seems to be coming from a much bigger/deeper instrument.

The blending is in no way redundant, and I feel that instead of a sound upon another sound, the blend is more like a sound parallel to another sound, and in between this dissonant realm, magic!

I’m also using reverb from both sources (Pianoteq/P-515), and no, it’s not ‘too much’. As a matter of fact, the clarity and independence of the notes is not compromised at all. It’s as if clarity prevails despite the lingering effect of two reverbs resonating off a space that is both tangible yet also abstract. So yes, I can have my cake and eat it too.

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I play classical only and there is no modelled piano currently in existence that I find as convincing as the best sampled pianos, either in terms of playability or responsiveness.

Originally Posted by Liddough

So if I use a sampled digital piano, and I press a note very softly, does it play back the actual note as if it were played softly on the grand piano? If so, how many samples are usually on a single note?


VSL D-274 has over 4,000 samples per key.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by pianistje
Originally Posted by CyberGene
FP30 isn’t modeled. I’m a classical pianist and can’t play modeled pianos, so that’s not true. I hope that closes the topic.

Yes you can,...... but you don’t want to.
Or have you secretly set up your N1X with pianoteq ? blush
The irony.......


I think CG's message was tongue in cheek.

Indeed wink

I was responding to that arrogant BS from that certain classical pianist who is definitely a typical Pianoteqie showing a very common ill-informed and biased misinformation about sampled pianos and their inability to suit classical music, or any music at all for that matter. An opinion that’s prevalent among that crowd.

As to FP30 vs P515. They are equally modeled as well as sampled if we call this modeling and that sampling.

I was fully aware of your preferences,..... but my ‘tongue in cheek’ was lost on both of you... grin
CyberGene and pianoteq ? Only when Pianoteq 14.5 in 2040 hits the market when they finally solve the last bits of artificcial decay ,muddy sub contra bass octave and overly present and disproportional attack.

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The discussion here and in another thread suggested trying the Pianoteq Steingraber. So I loaded it up.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I was responding to that arrogant BS from that certain classical pianist who is definitely a typical Pianoteqie showing a very common ill-informed and biased misinformation about sampled pianos and their inability to suit classical music, or any music at all for that matter. An opinion that’s prevalent among that crowd.
The middle octaves sounded extra fake, almost like a 80s-era electric. More fake than the other PT models. I cannot understand the recommendation.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The discussion here and in another thread suggested trying the Pianoteq Steingraber. So I loaded it up.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I was responding to that arrogant BS from that certain classical pianist who is definitely a typical Pianoteqie showing a very common ill-informed and biased misinformation about sampled pianos and their inability to suit classical music, or any music at all for that matter. An opinion that’s prevalent among that crowd.
The middle octaves sounded extra fake, almost like a 80s-era electric. More fake than the other PT models. I cannot understand the recommendation.

Now try the C. Bechstein model, if you get a chance.


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Originally Posted by Liddough

So if I use a sampled digital piano, and I press a note very softly, does it play back the actual note as if it were played softly on the grand piano? If so, how many samples are usually on a single note?


Your Roland had 4 velocity layers for the samples. Roland then uses modeling to blend between them for additional velocities (likely 127 but possibly more or less). So in essence it's a combined/hybrid approach. Note that most DPs do something like this. Only the large VSTs (and maybe big onboard engines like Nord or Dexibel) have substantially more sampled layers.


Originally Posted by Burkie
Note also that many digital piano use both sampling and modeling combined together.

I think Roland PureAcoustic (LX706 & LX708) are the only pianos with great purely modelled sound without samples.


Roland SuperNatural modeling (unlimited polyphony) and V-Piano engines are fully modeled as well (no samples of the attack or anything else, with the possible exception of action noises like fallback or damper thunks). The older SuperNatural Piano engine s (128-384 polyphony) uses sampling for the attack.

Originally Posted by Liddough

The salesman told me the FP30 was modelled from several European pianos. I assumed they sampled all of them and formed some kind of algorithm for the model. I’ve been swindled!


Roland doesn't disclose to anyone which instruments they use for their benchmark sound (for either sampled engines or modeled).

Most assume it's a Steinway D, but I wouldn't expect a random salesperson to know for sure.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Roland SuperNatural modeling (unlimited polyphony) and V-Piano engines are fully modeled as well (no samples of the attack or anything else, with the possible exception of action noises like fallback or damper thunks). The older SuperNatural Piano engine s (128-384 polyphony) uses sampling for the attack.

Gombessa, Roland themselves published that SuperNATURAL modeling uses samples at their core.

http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/jupiter-80_tech_brief.pdf
Page 2, paragraph 2.

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There's "SuperNATURAL modeling" where "modeling" isn't a part of the technology name. So, it's just "SuperNATURAL" and uses samples too. E.g. FP-30.

That's also what the linked paper talks about.

Then there's "SuperNATURAL Piano Modeling" where "modeling" is part of the technology name and it's fully modelled. E.g. FP-90.

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Originally Posted by mcontraveos
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Roland SuperNatural modeling (unlimited polyphony) and V-Piano engines are fully modeled as well (no samples of the attack or anything else, with the possible exception of action noises like fallback or damper thunks). The older SuperNatural Piano engine s (128-384 polyphony) uses sampling for the attack.

Gombessa, Roland themselves published that SuperNATURAL modeling uses samples at their core.

http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/jupiter-80_tech_brief.pdf
Page 2, paragraph 2.


You're just being confused by Roland's opaque naming scheme and decision to use the same term for two distinctly different technologies. Clotheared above had the right explanation of what is being discussed.


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It's even better to just ignore the techno-babble and focus on the sound.

Bruce in Philly put it nicely in another thread: Screw the technology.

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Originally Posted by mcontraveos
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Roland SuperNatural modeling (unlimited polyphony) and V-Piano engines are fully modeled as well (no samples of the attack or anything else, with the possible exception of action noises like fallback or damper thunks). The older SuperNatural Piano engine s (128-384 polyphony) uses sampling for the attack.

Gombessa, Roland themselves published that SuperNATURAL modeling uses samples at their core.

http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/jupiter-80_tech_brief.pdf
Page 2, paragraph 2.


Look at the polyphony, and that will tell you which engine they’re using - ie sampled with some modelling on top, or fully modelled.

A good comparison can be seen here (although the comments RE wood ‘cores’ is inaccurate, it’s actually a plastic core with wood outers):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N9exacUAwg


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Here is a comparison between the Kawai ES8, the Yamaha P255 and the Roland FP-90. The FP-90 uses a modeled engine (SuperNatural Piano Modeling Engine). The other two use sample-based piano engines (maybe with some modeling of various resonances).


To me the ES8 is the winner (more natural sound). IMHO the FP-90 is the worst sounding (more digital sound).

But all of them sound poor compared to a good piano VST.

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I wouldn't buy any of those three - the new Roland and Yamaha models are due out in the next few months. The Roland will have the same key action and PureAcoustic sound engine as the LX706.

Last edited by Burkie; 11/25/19 05:34 AM.

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Originally Posted by Burkie
I wouldn't buy any of those three - the new Roland and Yamaha models are due out in the next few months. The Roland will have the same key action and PureAcoustic sound engine as the LX706.


* citation needed.


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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Burkie
I wouldn't buy any of those three - the new Roland and Yamaha models are due out in the next few months. The Roland will have the same key action and PureAcoustic sound engine as the LX706.


* citation needed.


Yamaha release a new CLP series every 3 years, at Musikmesse (April):
https://web.archive.org/web/20180705004346/https://ca.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/pianos/clavinova35th/chronicle/index.html

Roland release a new FP model every 3.5 years:
https://www.roland.com/us/company/press_releases/2016/ROLAND-ANNOUNCES-FP-90-DIGITAL-PIANO/
https://www.roland.com/us/company/press_releases/2013/1673/
https://www.roland.com/us/company/press_releases/2010/1118/

Can we also expect something nice and new from Kawai, KJ?

Last edited by Burkie; 11/25/19 05:50 AM.

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Originally Posted by Burkie
I wouldn't buy any of those three - the new Roland and Yamaha models are due out in the next few months. The Roland will have the same key action and PureAcoustic sound engine as the LX706.

I think exactly the opposite. To me, the best moment to buy a product is just when you know the release of a new model is imminent, because usually the price of the old models goes down. For example I bought a Kawai CN37 just some weeks before the release of its successor, the CN39, and I saved about 300 euros. Of course, I did some research on the new features of the CN39 and I concluded that to me those improvements were not so important, but this may not always be the case. Anyway, during this periods, there are more choices for the buyer, so I think it's better to wait for them.

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Burkie
I wouldn't buy any of those three - the new Roland and Yamaha models are due out in the next few months. The Roland will have the same key action and PureAcoustic sound engine as the LX706.


* citation needed.


Well the ES8 is also due for refresh and you've likely seen the list of updates in the successor but of course you're not allowed to say ;( I'd expect something similar to CN29/39 spec-wise.
I'm not so sure the successors will get all the desired goodies, seen Casio make a side-step recently. Seems the makers have to offer something to justify the price hike, but also want to keep some candy for squeezing big bucks from the rich and pros wink
I'm quite sure though that now isn't the season for the best deals in this range (FP90, ES8, etc). Looking at long-term price trends, the new models will appear, surely with higher starting prices, while the current models will likely be on sale down to 100-200 bucks below the current best offers.

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