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Lowering height of grand music desk for child #2915034 11/22/19 01:13 PM
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Gombessa Offline OP
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My 6yo daughter (who is petite even for her age) is taking piano lessons, and our piano has a music desk at "standard" grand height. It works fine with me, but she feels it's too high and too far away. When we sit with her for practice, we frequently end up holding the book against the fallboard lip, and sometimes she'll even stand the book up on the black keys against the fallboard.

Frankly, I find that lower is a more convenient height/distance for myself as well, at least I feel so when playing on uprights like the Yamaha U1/U3, which have the folding music desk in the middle of the fallboard.

My question is, what do you generally recommend for young children who have this complaint? Suck it up? Buy/build some ridiculous hanging contraption to lower the height of books? My wife is set on doing something to alleviate this, I think she's going to hang some kind of rubberband/binderclip jerry-rig from the music rest to hold the books lower, unless I come up with a better solution or some way to talk her out of it!


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Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Gombessa] #2915040 11/22/19 01:18 PM
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I'd be very keen to know of solutions to this too - whilst I'm not 6 years old, I prefer to be closer to the music like you.

Something portable to take to my next exam would be ace!


Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Gombessa] #2915042 11/22/19 01:19 PM
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Not a teacher, but I did like the music rack on my upright more than on my grand

I have thought about this one . What I would really like is for someone to make one at a lower price
Grand stand

Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: dogperson] #2915051 11/22/19 01:30 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Not a teacher, but I did like the music rack on my upright more than on my grand

I have thought about this one . What I would really like is for someone to make one at a lower price
Grand stand

You can online order from a 3D printing service, to custom print one of these for yourself.

I bought myself a 3D printer a few weeks ago and have been printing like mad. Once you have one, you can imagine all sorts of gadgets that just need to be made now. Unfortunately, that grandstand would still be a bit too big to print on my current printer, but I am strongly considering upgrading my current printer for a larger one when my current interior redesign is finished so I can gauge how much space I have for a "toy."


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: dogperson] #2915057 11/22/19 01:41 PM
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Gombessa Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Not a teacher, but I did like the music rack on my upright more than on my grand

I have thought about this one . What I would really like is for someone to make one at a lower price
Grand stand


Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Unfortunately, that grandstand would still be a bit too big to print on my current printer, but I am strongly considering upgrading my current printer for a larger one when my current interior redesign is finished so I can gauge how much space I have for a "toy."


Thanks dogperson and Tyrone!

I've combed through prior threads on this topic, and I've seen the Grand Stand device before (yeesh, at what price). I also have a 3D printer and a lot of experience drawing up CAD designs and printing odds and ends as Tyrone suggests. I've already designed a solution that would work in a pinch and can be printed on a medium 6x8" bed, but I guess the thing I'm most interested in is the teacher's perspective of whether there's anything wrong with accommodating this, or if it's advantageous to make her get used to a higher music desk (granted if we had a different piano with a lower built-in rest, it wouldn't be an issue at all).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2915105 11/22/19 03:23 PM
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Tyrone - could you print parts that you could then assemble, or is that a pain in the proverbial?


Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: OscarRamsey] #2915113 11/22/19 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by OscarRamsey
Tyrone - could you print parts that you could then assemble, or is that a pain in the proverbial?


Yes, assembly of segmented parts is SOP for larger prints.

Due to the dimensions and flat sheet nature, something like the Grand Stand would more more efficient to make with a CNC or laser cutter that works with large sheets of cardboard/wood/acrylic.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: OscarRamsey] #2915115 11/22/19 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by OscarRamsey
Tyrone - could you print parts that you could then assemble, or is that a pain in the proverbial?

You can of course. I even printed myself a Chinese puzzle box. It was great. I've never had one of those and I'm even Chinese, so something was wrong. Remedied that in 30 mins. LOL

But if you want to have it look exactly like the the grandstand (although it won't be as transparent - additive manufacturing means it won't be crystal clear) in terms of its one-piece construction, then you'll need to print it with a larger printer than I have right now. That said, you can even print very elaborate constructions like this iPad holder out of my size printer.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: dogperson] #2915141 11/22/19 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Not a teacher, but I did like the music rack on my upright more than on my grand

I have thought about this one . What I would really like is for someone to make one at a lower price
Grand stand


It does seem expensive for a piece of plastic. But it looks really well made and certainly appears to be popular. At least from their own web site. I wonder why no one has copied it yet?


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Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Gombessa] #2915144 11/22/19 05:13 PM
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Gombessa, I may have a solution for you, sending a PM.


It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Gombessa] #2915452 11/23/19 12:53 PM
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Gombessa Offline OP
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Thanks so much John, responded!


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Gombessa] #2915503 11/23/19 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Thanks so much John, responded!


Hey guys. Why not share? Some of us may be interested in a solution. confused


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Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: TomLC] #2915596 11/23/19 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Thanks so much John, responded!


Hey guys. Why not share? Some of us may be interested in a solution. confused


I’ll second this request😊. Since there is another option, could you share?


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Gombessa] #2915654 11/24/19 03:05 AM
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Quick update:

Here's what I came up with in a pinch. It's not perfect, and I think I need a better solution long term, but man it's so close to great that I think it may be useful to others.

*NOTE* this only works on pianos that have a gap between the fallboard and the front beam (or music desk) that can act as a slot to wedge a wireframe for support. Look carefully and see if the dimensions work out.

I got these adjustable tabletop display stands from Amazon for $11 for a 2-pack: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0771S8PW7/ref=ya_aw_od_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And they just happen to sit firmly over the fallboard, and under the lip of the front beam:

[Linked Image]

One would have worked fine for a centered book, but two is a bit more stable for landscape books and multiple free sheets. Presumably you could stick 6-8 side by side of you want to have a widescreen music rest across all 88 keys smile

[Linked Image]

And there's how much it lowers the sheets:
[Linked Image]

So why isn't this the one to rule them all?

1. It's a tad *too* low, and so far towards the player that the music is actually over your hands. I'm afraid of smacking them as I play if I leave them on. Maybe fixable with a set of large pliers...

2. If you close the lid without holding the frames, they fall onto your piano. My kids aren't particularly careful, nor do they listen to instructions well, so I'll have to install and remove them every time they use it. And I'm sure that exercise will be wonderful for the polished finish smile

There are a couple of other minor quibbles, but primarily they do address what I've been instructed to remedy. So until something better comes along, I think this will do.

I'd still love to hear from teachers whether there's any downside to this exercise. For now I'm assuming from the silence that sheet height isn't really an issue worth commenting on.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Gombessa] #2915716 11/24/19 08:49 AM
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It is a problem.

With my bifocals, there is no longer any way to get my head cranked back far enough to see that type desk, and an organ is worse.

Single vision reading glasses set for the right distance are better but not a complete solution.

If I needed music spread across 88 keys I would scan it and read from a tablet. I play with a couple of people who do that and it works well. Or maybe a set of VI glasses.

That might even solve the page turn problem. (My most frustrating and nervewracking task happens whenever I show up and the organist has me turn pages. Of course I have to be gracious and do it but I HATE that. The pressure gets to me. Is he going to nod or will he forget? Does he need one measure or three? His head bobbed, was that the nod or just his normal motion? Oh crap the page slipped back. Performance ruined.)


gotta go practice
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Gombessa] #2915723 11/24/19 09:38 AM
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Gombesssa

Thanks so much for sharing - really good job. The only problem I can really see is that it does fall low to the keyboard and I’m wondering about whether or not my hands will be hitting it. Even if they don’t hit, I think I might worry about it. I’m just not sure how it can be modified to change it.

Tim, the current GP racks, IMHO, can cause neck strain by looking up to read. I am short waisted, so I have less height in a seated position, which increases the problem.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: Gombessa] #2915761 11/24/19 12:08 PM
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That looks pretty good. Will it hold an iPad?


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Re: Lowering height of grand music desk for child [Re: TomLC] #2915776 11/24/19 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
The only problem I can really see is that it does fall low to the keyboard and I’m wondering about whether or not my hands will be hitting it. Even if they don’t hit, I think I might worry about it. I’m just not sure how it can be modified to change it.


Yeah, there's a psychological concern for sure. I haven't yet hit it with with bigger jumps.

To modify it, you could bend the (thick) wireframes so that the rest sits higher, or push it back towards the fallboard a cm or so. I think it would be pretty hard to elegantly bend such thick stock though.

Originally Posted by TomLC
That looks pretty good. Will it hold an iPad?


Definitely. It'll probably hold a stack of 3-4 iPads, especially if you double them up as in the pictures.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10

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