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K. Jarrett's improvisation on The Old Country
#2911889 11/14/19 12:18 PM
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https://yadi.sk/d/KVsCkgUABCBmUQ

1. Piano improv. par;

2. Motivic fragments:

3. Linear fragments


Graphic display of the ratios of these two melodic elements on a time vector.

[Linked Image]

Each mature improviser is characterized by the presence of these two elements in various proportions. Anyone who starts to learn improvisation from scales risks risking falling into the field of boring dull, scale-like phrases that express nothing more than theory.



Last edited by Nahum; 11/14/19 12:19 PM.
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Re: K. Jarrett's improvisation on The Old Country
Nahum #2911912 11/14/19 01:40 PM
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In principle, such a division of melodic elements is somewhat crude, because phrasing also contains transitional stages from sequences of motives to linearity, and vice versa; however, then a more in-depth analysis of the melody is required. This categorization is more suitable for students studying improvisation, but not those who already own it to a large extent. .

Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nahum #2912666 11/16/19 06:16 AM
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Bird - Night in Tunisia

https://yadi.sk/d/LcfR0ke4oisJhQ

[Linked Image]

There is an interesting order: usually linear fragments are framed by motivic elements ; in this case, the opposite. The initial break leads to the first phrase; the last line elegantly transfers the baton to a trumpeter. Nevertheless, the balance is in favor of motivic fragments.

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nahum #2912704 11/16/19 09:44 AM
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this is really cool Nahum!

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nahum #2912706 11/16/19 09:48 AM
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Thanks, Dave!

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nahum #2913003 11/17/19 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Anyone who starts to learn improvisation from scales risks risking falling into the field of boring dull, scale-like phrases that express nothing more than theory.


When teachers introduce Modes real early I object strongly.
Useful for chord analysis etc but really start painting student into a corner, kind of.

Even when doing the most common chords, dominant 7th, you start loosing the scale.

Why teach someone depending on the starting note in a scale?

I usually get a pitch in my head and want to find that straight away - so intervals - hearing them, from last note, is the key, I think, That's what I am working towards anyway, whether guitar, bass or keyboards.


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Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nahum #2913005 11/17/19 02:08 AM
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Edit time expired.....

But it's a homecooked idea in my own kitchen.

Motivic - I'm thinking jazz and how a jazz version of any song is a theme, could be very short, and just come back in between. How you do that is bringning audience back in if on a wild detour out there.

If we don't connect at all
- yeah this is a virtuoso maybe we think
but do we feel something?

Our brain seeks pattern - without any pattern we are lost.


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Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nip #2913025 11/17/19 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Nip


Our brain seeks pattern - without any pattern we are lost.


Moreover!
I am very sorry that there is no translation into English of the work of Vladimir Dashkevich "Theory of Intonation" (1986), where he continues to develop this theory, 110 years after the appearance of the first work about intonation of Boleslav Yavorsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleslav_Yavorsky . I think this is a very interesting and important work. Between various statements of the author, sometimes quite controversial, the following stand out: the most powerful means of intonational influence on the human psyche is Musically - Poetic Intonation ([/i]MPI), which under certain conditions creates an intonation resonance with individuals and large masses. Intonation resonance causes a group reaction in the form of dance, singing, marching. But its impact can be even deeper - when a new thought arises for a social group, its transmission becomes possible precisely due to intonation resonance. The art of music and poetry begins with it. In other words, the art of music and poetry is the art of the emergence of intonation resonance.

That is, the brain also needs resonant intonation communication with others!

Last edited by Nahum; 11/17/19 05:26 AM.
Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nahum #2913806 11/19/19 01:42 PM
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Thank you for this analysis.

I agree that the long standing obsession with modes is not the correct approach (certainly not a comprehensive one).

I feel it really comes down to teaching students how to construct a melody: how to use chord tones on strong beats, departing from them via step (chord scales) and skip (arpeggios) and then discussing how to incorporate chromaticism through the use of non harmonic tones (approach patterns).

I invite you to look at my online course "Improvisation- The Concept" which demonstrates this approach using a Hank Mobley transcription.

https://www.jazzpianoonline.com/courses/improv-the-concept


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Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nahum #2914130 11/20/19 09:11 AM
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Nice work Nahum.

Aside from the various major and minor scales, I only really learned the dorian and diminished scales with any fluency. I've long thought that Bach was an influence on Jarrett's motivic soloing. And going back to his '70's American quartet with his with the more "free" styled playing I've speculated that Jarrett's solo lines were also influenced by Bartok (as say, in the 4th String Quartet).

Part of my practice routine is to sight read thru a handful of Bach's Well Tempered Clavier preludes and fugues , very slowly - nowhere near performance speed. I believe these help condition the mind and finger coordination in playing motivic figures as opposed to longer scalar lines. Of course what works for some may not work for others.

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nahum #2914249 11/20/19 01:49 PM
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Thanks , Indigo Dave!

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
JazzPianoOnline #2914479 11/21/19 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JazzPianoOnline

I agree that the long standing obsession with modes is not the correct approach

who thought modes were everything was in any case wrong. Motif/melody formation, however, requires a certain basic knowledge that includes also the chord/scale theory.

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nip #2914481 11/21/19 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Nip
Why teach someone depending on the starting note in a scale?

A quick thought and sort of question. In jazz, are modes really thought of in terms of starting note of a scale? Like, Lydian, for example: do you think of it as "starting on 4 of a major scale" or do you think of it as a raised 4th degree and maybe related to a particular chord? This is a question btw. I hope it doesn't distract from the thread.

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation
Nahum #2914485 11/21/19 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Cudo
, however, requires a certain basic knowledge that includes also the chord/scale theory.

Fundamentally disagree! A five-year-old child with a natural musicality can easily invent a motive by singing - if I remember myself.

Last edited by Nahum; 11/21/19 05:27 AM.

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