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Piece of the right difficulty #2912902 11/16/19 07:01 PM
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Tom97 Online Content OP
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How do you know if a piece is level appropriate for you? Is it true that one should be able to play a piece in max. 2 weeks of practice if the piece is at the student´s level?


Been playing piano for: 11 months

Pieces in progress:
1. La Campanella
2. Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2
3. Chopin´s Ballade No. 1
4. Rachmaninoff Concerto #3
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Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2912908 11/16/19 07:12 PM
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That's a question that is hard to answer because there are variables that would contribute to an answer.

For example, if you are a relative beginner, it may take some time to just read the notes and get comfortable playing them in time and at an appropriate tempo. How long that would take would depend on your playing experience.

If the piece is in a key signature the pianist is not comfortable with, it will take longer than a piece in a known and comfortable key signature.

Even at a piece "at a student's level" there could be rhythmic challenges that require more learning time to master than another that is more straightforward.

It also depends upon how long the piece is. If it's a short piece of one or two pages, it will take less time than a piece of the same relative difficulty that is ten, twelve or more pages.

There are professionals who study works "at their level" who will spend months working on a piece before thinking that they have learned it and that it is ready for performance.

Maximum two weeks of practice to "be able to play a piece?" No, I don't think so; it just depends.

Regards,


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Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2912955 11/16/19 09:01 PM
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BruceD’s reply has pretty much answered your query, but I will add a couple of points.

Unless you are at a very early stage, you should be able to read through a piece and get a fair idea of whether you could learn it. This would be based on pieces you have played to date. You don’t want to get bogged down and fail to progress; that’s discouraging.

Play a piece in two weeks? Play to what level? Opinion varies as to how much you should polish before moving on and that’s where a teacher’s guidance is useful. But you get diminishing returns for effort after a period ... yet go back to that piece after a year or more (of progressive practice) and it should be easy.


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Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2912971 11/16/19 09:42 PM
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2 weeks?? 😳

Obviously, it depends on the length and difficulty of the piece. Personally, I haven't finished working on a piece at the 2 week mark in years, LOL, especially since I work on 3 or 4 pieces at a time. Right now I'm working on 5.


Lisa

Currently working on RCM 7 repertoire
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: ebonykawai] #2913011 11/17/19 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ebonykawai
2 weeks?? 😳

Personally, I haven't finished working on a piece at the 2 week mark in years


me neither. I might have learned the notes in a couple of weeks once upon a time, but not to perform it comfortably. As learners (beginners, or advanced) we are generally learning some new technique within a piece. The more you advance the harder some of these technical jumps can become and there are no quick fixes. Sometimes you even have to leave the piece and come back weeks/months later.

Quote
Is it true that one should be able to play a piece in max. 2 weeks of practice if the piece is at the student´s level?
I would be less concerned about what other people


There are no norms in piano.


Following Trying to follow the Ling Ling 40 hour method

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


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Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2913024 11/17/19 03:17 AM
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Your level in essence is really just the percentage of the denoted target tempo that you can play a piece at.

So if you want to roughly assess a piece, try to find the hardest place in it, set the taget tempo for the piece on your metronome and try to play. If the tempo is behind reach for now, I'm sure you will feel it pretty soon.

For a solo piano performance working 3-4 months on a piece is what I think is considered acceptable minimum.

Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2913027 11/17/19 04:54 AM
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Months for a piece? Then I don´t know how the typical beginner usually can finish a book with tens of pieces in roughly 6 months (many people´s experience with Piano adventures books).
But yes, I should have clarified that by a piece, I don´t mean La Campanella or Chopin´s Ballade laugh
A couple a few weeks from a non-method book piece that you want to polish and perform seems reasonable.

I am asking because I´ve been typically handling 2 - 3 pieces from my Piano adventures book a week. I was usually able to memorize the notes the first day so that I could play it (while occasionally looking at the score). Then a week later I am expected to play it for a teacher. Sometimes I get assigned new pieces, sometimes I do something wrong and need to fix till the next lesson.
Until now, it was not really challenging for me to play the method book pieces. My new teacher said that the Adult piano adventures book 1 is way too easy for me and we skipped to the second book (with about 75 % of the first book already finished). I started working on my first piece from the second book and I felt the increase in difficulty - a lot more moving around the keyboard, more crosses, more difficult rhythm and finger coordination. I felt discouraged because I could not learn it the first day smile However, two days later, it again feels pretty comfortable to play it.
I was afraid of skipping the end of the first book but now since I know that it should take a lot longer to learn a piece on your level, I think I should skip...


Been playing piano for: 11 months

Pieces in progress:
1. La Campanella
2. Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2
3. Chopin´s Ballade No. 1
4. Rachmaninoff Concerto #3
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2913034 11/17/19 06:02 AM
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Learning to play is not like a math course. The math course is designed and intended to be covered from beginning to end. A method book is like a guide. The pieces you need to play must not be too easy otherwise you are really just waisting your time not learning anything new and not too difficult otherwise you feel discouraged. But it is normal to have challenges playing a piece otherwise it means you are not learning anything. Your teacher is the right person to decide that, because that's why you have one. There are different learning strategies. You could tackle more difficult pieces which would take more than a few days to master and eventually that is what is going to happend when you will go up the levels.

Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2913048 11/17/19 07:59 AM
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As I've run the gamut from rank beginner who didn't know one end of a piano from another to a pianist who knows the difference between A## and B wink , I can say that with very short beginner or near-beginner original keyboard/piano pieces (those from the first few pages of Agay's Easy Classics to Moderns, which were my intro to them following beginner primers) which were at my level, it took 2 - 3 weeks to learn and play them 'properly' from the score (of course I never memorized any piece - that would just be time-wasting).

"Properly" is relative: my teacher easily sight-read them with much more finesse and musicality than I ever could after three months of lessons. But it would be pointless to keep trying to polish them any further as I didn't have the skills then to be able to do so. Therefore I'd be learning a few pieces at the same time, starting a new one while still in the process of learning one from the week before, etc. My teacher decided when a piece was 'finished'.

Which is the way it should be.....

These days, I'm learning new pieces by myself, of various levels of difficulty. Those that I'm intending to perform (from memory) can take me anything from a few minutes to learn and memorize (i.e. short easy pieces that I could already play perfectly at first sight), then perform the same day, to........years. The latter ones are all long, note-dense, technically difficult pieces which require me to take time - and a lot of elbow grease and patience, as I'm somewhat talent-challenged - to learn the notes and memorize while mastering the technical intricacies (which often include tricky figuration that I'd never encountered in other pieces before), then put away for a while before returning to them afresh. That process may be repeated until I feel like I've got them "fully in my bones", before I can perform them.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: bennevis] #2913053 11/17/19 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
As I've run the gamut from rank beginner who didn't know one end of a piano from another to a pianist who knows the difference between A## and B wink , I can say that with very short beginner or near-beginner original keyboard/piano pieces (those from the first few pages of Agay's Easy Classics to Moderns, which were my intro to them following beginner primers) which were at my level, it took 2 - 3 weeks to learn and play them 'properly' from the score (of course I never memorized any piece - that would just be time-wasting).

"Properly" is relative: my teacher easily sight-read them with much more finesse and musicality than I ever could after three months of lessons. But it would be pointless to keep trying to polish them any further as I didn't have the skills then to be able to do so. Therefore I'd be learning a few pieces at the same time, starting a new one while still in the process of learning one from the week before, etc. My teacher decided when a piece was 'finished'.

Which is the way it should be.....

These days, I'm learning new pieces by myself, of various levels of difficulty. Those that I'm intending to perform (from memory) can take me anything from a few minutes to learn and memorize (i.e. short easy pieces that I could already play perfectly at first sight), then perform the same day, to........years. The latter ones are all long, note-dense, technically difficult pieces which require me to take time - and a lot of elbow grease and patience, as I'm somewhat talent-challenged - to learn the notes and memorize while mastering the technical intricacies (which often include tricky figuration that I'd never encountered in other pieces before), then put away for a while before returning to them afresh. That process may be repeated until I feel like I've got them "fully in my bones", before I can perform them.


I am now working on my first piece from the book you mentioned - Easy classics to moderns. It´s Minuet in A minor by Henry Purcell. It´s definitely on another level than the pieces from the Faber method book. Especially the 2 voices in the left hand were kind of tricky for me since it was the first time I encountered such thing. So yes, 2 weeks to play it "properly" would be just about right.

It´s just the perfectionist in me insisting that I play every single little thing in the first book until I can move on to the second (so that I don´t have gaps in my knowledge). But the more rational me is telling me that after 10 months of playing around, I should really move on to something more challenging since I am just wasting time playing the easy stuff I am learning nothing from... I am probably just overcomplicating it (since this is what I usually do with everything) but I don´t want to make a mistake and start all over again.


Been playing piano for: 11 months

Pieces in progress:
1. La Campanella
2. Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2
3. Chopin´s Ballade No. 1
4. Rachmaninoff Concerto #3
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2913059 11/17/19 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
For a solo piano performance working 3-4 months on a piece is what I think is considered acceptable minimum.
There is no minimum or maximum without knowing:
1. The difficulty of the piece relative to the pianist's present level
2. How much time each day will be spent on practicing the piece
3. The length of the piece

Depending on the above some pieces can be sight read perfectly and other pieces can never be learned in one's lifetime. And everything in between.

After the OP clarified his present level and what kind of piece he was talking about, reasonable estimates were possible.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/17/19 08:52 AM.
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2913060 11/17/19 08:51 AM
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Why don't you just finish book 1 on your own? Just take a few hours to run through each piece. Make a short list of the pieces that interest you, then play those a few more times. Maybe you perfect one of them, and leave the rest.

Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: wszxbcl] #2913066 11/17/19 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by wszxbcl
Why don't you just finish book 1 on your own? Just take a few hours to run through each piece. Make a short list of the pieces that interest you, then play those a few more times. Maybe you perfect one of them, and leave the rest.


Yes, that´s probably the compromise I will make. I and my teacher both agreed that I shouldn´t abandon the book completely - I can practice my reading by playing some of the very easy pieces I haven´t played yet. I can probably pick some of the harder ones I find interesting, learn them on my own and then play them to my teacher as well in order to fix possible mistakes.


Been playing piano for: 11 months

Pieces in progress:
1. La Campanella
2. Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2
3. Chopin´s Ballade No. 1
4. Rachmaninoff Concerto #3
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: earlofmar] #2913071 11/17/19 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by earlofmar
Originally Posted by ebonykawai
2 weeks?? 😳

Personally, I haven't finished working on a piece at the 2 week mark in years


me neither. I might have learned the notes in a couple of weeks once upon a time, but not to perform it comfortably. As learners (beginners, or advanced) we are generally learning some new technique within a piece. The more you advance the harder some of these technical jumps can become and there are no quick fixes. Sometimes you even have to leave the piece and come back weeks/months later.

Quote
Is it true that one should be able to play a piece in max. 2 weeks of practice if the piece is at the student´s level?
I would be less concerned about what other people


There are no norms in piano.


Yes, exactly! ❤️


Lisa

Currently working on RCM 7 repertoire
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2913076 11/17/19 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom97
Months for a piece? Then I don´t know how the typical beginner usually can finish a book with tens of pieces in roughly 6 months (many people´s experience with Piano adventures books).


Yes, you should have said method book pieces, that's totally different. I don't consider anything in method books to be "pieces", even though they sort of are in a way. They are usually fragments, or short musical ideas, or shortened in some way, since they are chosen to teach something. Even the final book in a method contains short pieces.

Of course they can gone through a lot faster! That's not what I thought of when I read your post.


Lisa

Currently working on RCM 7 repertoire
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Tom97] #2913098 11/17/19 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom97


I am now working on my first piece from the book you mentioned - Easy classics to moderns. It´s Minuet in A minor by Henry Purcell. It´s definitely on another level than the pieces from the Faber method book. Especially the 2 voices in the left hand were kind of tricky for me since it was the first time I encountered such thing. So yes, 2 weeks to play it "properly" would be just about right.


That piece is actually not so easy as it seems. The Agay version is a simplified one. The repeats are missing as well as the ornaments and like in all Purcell music some elements are played differently than written. Descending slurred double 8th are in fact to be played as dotted 8th and a short 16th. I guess not very important for a beginner, but if you intent to understand the music of each period, those elements are important.

Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Sidokar] #2913104 11/17/19 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar

That piece is actually not so easy as it seems. The Agay version is a simplified one. The repeats are missing as well as the ornaments and like in all Purcell music some elements are played differently than written. Descending slurred double 8th are in fact to be played as dotted 8th and a short 16th. I guess not very important for a beginner, but if you intent to understand the music of each period, those elements are important.

There's no need to complicate stuff unnecessarily.

If you ornament and double-dot all Baroque stuff as they were (probably) done in their time, no near-beginner would ever be able to play any Baroque.

There's plenty of time to learn to run after you've learnt to stand without falling over.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: bennevis] #2913171 11/17/19 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis


If you ornament and double-dot all Baroque stuff as they were (probably) done in their time, no near-beginner would ever be able to play any Baroque.

There's plenty of time to learn to run after you've learnt to stand without falling over.


There are plenty of pieces that are complex to start which are simplified so that beginners can play them. But that should be mentionned by the editor (maybe it is). And i am personally in favor of explaining early on some basic elements of style. Otherwise there is no point playing Purcell, you may just stick with basic nursery songs.

Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: Sidokar] #2913186 11/17/19 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by bennevis


If you ornament and double-dot all Baroque stuff as they were (probably) done in their time, no near-beginner would ever be able to play any Baroque.

There's plenty of time to learn to run after you've learnt to stand without falling over.


There are plenty of pieces that are complex to start which are simplified so that beginners can play them. But that should be mentionned by the editor (maybe it is). And i am personally in favor of explaining early on some basic elements of style. Otherwise there is no point playing Purcell, you may just stick with basic nursery songs.

I disagree - the Purcell is as the composer wrote it (not simplified, but with ornaments removed), and the Agay book is designed for kids, as well as beginners in general.

Which eight-year old can grasp the niceties of current Baroque dogma (which BTW isn't what it was just 50 years ago, before HIP became known as......HIP).

Why shouldn't kids - and beginners - play music by great composers, just because they aren't able to understand current Baroque dogma (and it is dogma), and can't twiddle their fingers quickly enough to execute mordents etc?

I was ten when I learnt it: I didn't even know what "Baroque" was, and at that time Baroque was played in romantic style (think Karajan, Karl Richter etc). There's plenty of time to learn about all that later on, and my teacher didn't swamp me with unnecessary fluff.

Which pianist today would play the Goldberg Aria as Kempff played it here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPq_uGc-jeI

How will pianists play it in 50 years' time?



"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Piece of the right difficulty [Re: bennevis] #2913222 11/17/19 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by bennevis


If you ornament and double-dot all Baroque stuff as they were (probably) done in their time, no near-beginner would ever be able to play any Baroque.

There's plenty of time to learn to run after you've learnt to stand without falling over.


There are plenty of pieces that are complex to start which are simplified so that beginners can play them. But that should be mentionned by the editor (maybe it is). And i am personally in favor of explaining early on some basic elements of style. Otherwise there is no point playing Purcell, you may just stick with basic nursery songs.

I disagree - the Purcell is as the composer wrote it (not simplified, but with ornaments removed), and the Agay book is designed for kids, as well as beginners in general.

Which eight-year old can grasp the niceties of current Baroque dogma (which BTW isn't what it was just 50 years ago, before HIP became known as......HIP).

Why shouldn't kids - and beginners - play music by great composers, just because they aren't able to understand current Baroque dogma (and it is dogma), and can't twiddle their fingers quickly enough to execute mordents etc?

I was ten when I learnt it: I didn't even know what "Baroque" was, and at that time Baroque was played in romantic style (think Karajan, Karl Richter etc). There's plenty of time to learn about all that later on, and my teacher didn't swamp me with unnecessary fluff.

Which pianist today would play the Goldberg Aria as Kempff played it here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPq_uGc-jeI

How will pianists play it in 50 years' time?




Well stated.


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