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Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2912765 11/16/19 11:41 AM
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Important fact number 1:
The lowest notes of piano does not vibrate at the fundamental. It’s just not there. Our hearing recreates the fundamental from the harmonics. Search for “missing fundamental” on google or on this very forum for that. This means that one does not need subwoofers for piano music.

Important fact number 2:
Real pianos are loud. LOUD. Imagine if you had an upright in the same small room as your DP. It’s going to fill that room with really loud and powerful sound. Speaker volume set at normal music level would be too quiet and sound thin and unsatisfying. And unlike headphones, it’s hard to turn up the volume on smallish speakers without distortion and also without bad interaction with the room.

So what this means is to get good sound, you need big speakers with high maximum loudness (spl) placed in your room correctly to avoid room modes, and high pass filtered above 100Hz. Or you could try four 5 inch monitors either around you in a sort of surround setup or his cabinet DP does, pointer in different directions.

Get four jbl 305s (I see they are on sale for $160/pair) and experiment with arrangements and EQ.

A good cabinet DP is expensive partly because of the physical cabinet but also speaker arrangement/design. And none of them have subs either.

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Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: redfish1901] #2912789 11/16/19 12:33 PM
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This is true. I was wondering that maybe the headphones sound so much better because they enclose my ears and I can play loud. I play the external speakers very low in my upstairs studio.

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2912854 11/16/19 04:15 PM
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Ok if anyone is interested. I got a better sound today. Spent hours reading the manual, moving things around, and testing all the piano sounds including the VST piano. I set the crossover on the sub, disconnected the mixing board and came straight out of the piano to the sub. Spread the HS5s out a little and cut back the high frequency a tad with the switch on the back of the HS5s. I also turned up the piano. I think that larger speakers in the room would defeat the purpose as I wouldn’t turn them up. These HS5s haven't broken in yet. I bought them from a friend who only had about 5 hours on them. I do think they are a little harsh. So the sub is staying and we will see about the HS5s. They may get replaced by adam3x or something similar. Thanks everyone.

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2912863 11/16/19 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RubyC
Ok if anyone is interested. I got a better sound today. Spent hours reading the manual, moving things around, and testing all the piano sounds including the VST piano. I set the crossover on the sub, disconnected the mixing board and came straight out of the piano to the sub. Spread the HS5s out a little and cut back the high frequency a tad with the switch on the back of the HS5s. I also turned up the piano. I think that larger speakers in the room would defeat the purpose as I wouldn’t turn them up. These HS5s haven't broken in yet. I bought them from a friend who only had about 5 hours on them. I do think they are a little harsh. So the sub is staying and we will see about the HS5s. They may get replaced by adam3x or something similar. Thanks everyone.


Great! I think your set up is a nice setup! If you live in a house with hollow floors and dry walls, you may also want to isolate your sub and speakers by adding some isolation feet.

You can also treat your room a little bit. Use a mirror to find the speakers' reflection points.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2912922 11/16/19 07:39 PM
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If you play with speaker volume turned down, Google

fletcher munson curve

and expect to use EQ to get good tonal balance.

Glad that you've improved things. Your room is small, the speakers are close to you. I suspect HS5's have enough power.


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2913144 11/17/19 12:35 PM
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How much power one needs for the speakers if they are positioned on the digital piano cabinet, so very close to the pianist?

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2913145 11/17/19 12:39 PM
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I have wondered that with say the iLoud speakers sitting on the MP11SE?

I am just so ignorant with this stuff I don’t have an idea of what might work and what is just laughable.

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: dmd] #2913157 11/17/19 01:22 PM
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Well, it might be time for me to try one more time …..

Here is something I mentioned earlier …..

Originally Posted by dmd
I have been down the road you (OP) are on with regard to monitors/speakers.

Suffice to say I have settled on the Edifier R1850DB.

I also have a subwoofer but seldom bother with it.

The Edifier seems to present my MP11SE sound in a very "natural" manner.

I know it sounds too good to be true but I no longer am "searching" for something better.


I understand that it is ignored …. because it just could not be true.

It is not expensive enough or the specs are not impressive enough.

I was in desperation mode when I read something about these speakers so I thought …"Why not give them a try. Nothing else is working."

I tried them and have never looked back.

I still have them and I enjoy the sound I get every time I use them.

To be clear, I normally use my headphones … but when I go for external sound, these speakers never disappoint me.

I won't bring it up again but I strongly suggest the OP might find them to be exactly what he is looking for.

Good Luck


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: dmd] #2913260 11/17/19 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
I have wondered that with say the iLoud speakers sitting on the MP11SE?

I am just so ignorant with this stuff I don’t have an idea of what might work and what is just laughable.


They are impressive for their size. If your room is small, they might provide plenty of volume. And their sound quality is very good, again, for their size. OTOH they are expensive.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: KevinM] #2913274 11/17/19 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
I have wondered that with say the iLoud speakers sitting on the MP11SE?
I am just so ignorant with this stuff I don’t have an idea of what might work and what is just laughable.

Don't into the hype KevinM. You don't need to study european brand names and frequency responses and sound pressure levels or acoustric dampening treatment to discuss speakers.

What you do is you plug it in, and see if you like the sound. If you do, that's good, if you don't, you try something else. A good set of headphones can give you a very good idea about what something should sound like. Reproducing that with speakers in a room can be quite a challenge though.

I would think home hi fi/computer/bookshelf speakers are a great place to start when chasing a sound solution. I would love to take a keyboard to a hi fi shop and try out all the flash new soundbars. Jumping straight to reference grade studio monitors is kinda crazy. I mean if you're the type of person that isn't too concerned with adding another zero to the price tag that's cool, but I don't think that's most people.

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: AndrewJCW] #2913280 11/17/19 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AndrewJCW
I would think home hi fi/computer/bookshelf speakers are a great place to start when chasing a sound solution.


BINGO !

And I know just the ones to start with …. LOL


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2913287 11/17/19 08:42 PM
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Sigh. FWIW. I know nobody like this answer, but IMHO, in order to know what's going on, you need to start by finding out objectively what your output levels are like. Assumption #1 is that the built in DP sound is perfect. It probably isn't but it is probably finely calibrated. Assumption #2 is that your room and speakers aren't perfect. I would suggest getting sonarworks with a calibrated mic, and then allowing sonarworks to figure out what your frequency spectrum looks like at ear level. Then get a 15 band stereo EQ and EQ in the opposite direction, to cancel out for full accuracy. There are full hardware solutions for this kind of thing too, but I'm not familiar with them. My brother went that route. They would give you further accuracy. Or you could feed you DP output into a computer and have sonarworks fix it. Kinda kills the spontaneity, though it works for my full VST system. I've found that every step along the way to flat frequency response, I am happier and happier with my total setup. Much cheaper than really good speakers and headphones. And easier than putting dampening foam all over the room.


VPC-1. Komplete Kontrol 61 1st gen. Pianoteq, Ravenscroft, etc. Two kids on Alfred.
Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: Melving] #2913300 11/17/19 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AndrewJCW
Originally Posted by KevinM
I have wondered that with say the iLoud speakers sitting on the MP11SE?
I am just so ignorant with this stuff I don’t have an idea of what might work and what is just laughable.

Don't into the hype KevinM. You don't need to study european brand names and frequency responses and sound pressure levels or acoustric dampening treatment to discuss speakers.

What you do is you plug it in, and see if you like the sound. If you do, that's good, if you don't, you try something else. A good set of headphones can give you a very good idea about what something should sound like. Reproducing that with speakers in a room can be quite a challenge though.

I would think home hi fi/computer/bookshelf speakers are a great place to start when chasing a sound solution. I would love to take a keyboard to a hi fi shop and try out all the flash new soundbars. Jumping straight to reference grade studio monitors is kinda crazy. I mean if you're the type of person that isn't too concerned with adding another zero to the price tag that's cool, but I don't think that's most people.


I think the flat frequency response gives you the opportunity to adjust the sound to your taste much better. It's like talking about the origin in the Euclidean space! If you know where the origin is, your calculations are always accurate (to some extent), reproducible and expected.


Originally Posted by Melving
Sigh. FWIW. I know nobody like this answer, but IMHO, in order to know what's going on, you need to start by finding out objectively what your output levels are like. Assumption #1 is that the built in DP sound is perfect. It probably isn't but it is probably finely calibrated. Assumption #2 is that your room and speakers aren't perfect. I would suggest getting sonarworks with a calibrated mic, and then allowing sonarworks to figure out what your frequency spectrum looks like at ear level. Then get a 15 band stereo EQ and EQ in the opposite direction, to cancel out for full accuracy. There are full hardware solutions for this kind of thing too, but I'm not familiar with them. My brother went that route. They would give you further accuracy. Or you could feed you DP output into a computer and have sonarworks fix it. Kinda kills the spontaneity, though it works for my full VST system. I've found that every step along the way to flat frequency response, I am happier and happier with my total setup. Much cheaper than really good speakers and headphones. And easier than putting dampening foam all over the room.


In the video I posted in this topic, Sonarworks and a calibrate mics are used exactly the same way you just described but IMO it is an overkill for a simple home setup. I guess with a bit of try and error, the OP is already happy.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2913314 11/17/19 11:16 PM
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Melving, I agree that a flat frequency is essential. I have a dual 31-band EQ and a pink noise generator that I use for every audio setup, be it a home, church, club or even car. It is the only way to go but I don't suggest that because I feel it would frustrate most people more than help. I had lots of fun experimenting with audio equipment long before I got into the business just like I had tons of fun playing crap before becoming a professional musician... I like to encourage people to experiment with the equipment they have before going out and spend more money smile

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2913335 11/18/19 12:09 AM
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Im warming up to the sound of the Yamaha HS8 sub and HS5 monitors. I noticed that they are flatter sounding than the Beyerdynamic DT-990 headphone. The headphones make the bass keys sound very realistic like with some midrange to them. Maybe Kawai tuned the headphone port or maybe the Yamahas are are just designed to be very neutral. The headphones specs have lower frequency response. The sub says 22khz on -10 which shows the volume knob turned all the way to the right? I will have to play with that in the daytime. Yamaha advertises the sub as 22 KHZ and I read somewhere that a pianos lowest frequency was 28KHZ. We will see because to me turning it fully counterclockwise means max volume. Not -10db. Funny when I used Ivory Synthology 2 pianos to test, the bass keys through the Yamahas sounded more like the rounded natural bass keys through the headphones. Anyways, throwing money at larger or more hifi speakers when I play at such a low volume doesn’t make sense. If anything, I think I could have used smaller speakers like iLouds. But I owned the HS5s already.

Tonight I rearranged my small music studio and added some mood lighting. I played Christmas carols for my spouse. I am no longer displeased with the Yamahas and I am completely happy with this piano. One day when I get better, years from now, maybe I can get more of furniture type piano downstairs in a my much larger living area. Then I can turn it up. My confidence level playing piano in front of people is low but man can I rip on the guitar.

I do like the idea of the multi band eq though. Maybe I would be able to fine tune the speakers to sound more like the headphones. Thanks all. I appreciate all your wisdom.

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2913342 11/18/19 12:39 AM
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Happy to know you're experimenting and having fun with your piano, speakers, mood lighting... smile

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: dmd] #2920543 12/07/19 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dmd
I have been down the road you (OP) are on with regard to monitors/speakers.
Suffice to say I have settled on the Edifier R1850DB.

I also have a subwoofer but seldom bother with it.

The Edifier seems to present my MP11SE sound in a very "natural" manner.
I know it sounds too good to be true but I no longer am "searching" for something better.

I have tried all the big boys with fancy specs and it always sound too cold and clinical.
Good Luck


I am now taking something like the Edifier and bookshelf speakers generally seriously. I would like to order a few different speakers try them and return the ones I am uninterested in but I think I could only get away with that going through Amazon.

I am thinking of contacting where I bought my MP11SE from with the JBL speakers and explain I'm not happy with the JBL speaks and ask if they could send me both Presonus E5 and Presonus E5 XT. The XT would have to go on stands because they could not fit on the MP11SE like the E5 could. I think they might be receptive since I've already spent so much with them.

But alternatively I could try out the Edifier speakers. Any reason specifically for the Edifier brand dmd? Any particular reason for this particular model?

Unfortunately I don't have somewhere where I can rely on some goodwill for having multiple speakers delivered and return the others, so this will need to be got right.

Kevin

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2920816 12/08/19 12:27 AM
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Kevin,

You didn't say in your last post why you're not happy with the 5" JBL monitors but I have a feeling you're not going to be any happier with another brand's 5" monitors either. The frequency range of a piano is from 27Hz to 4200Hz. Maybe you this information will help in your search for monitors/speakers. I have tried several different sizes and brands of monitors for my MP11se and will be glad to help if you PM me.

Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2920857 12/08/19 04:44 AM
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Sorry djvu. I'd mentioned it elsewhere so just made assumptions.

I am no way a hifi person. I've been known to happily listen to classical music out of the speakers of my iMac, so I'm not the kind of person who often notices what is missing when not listening to good quality hi fi equipment.

The JBLs have an audible hiss when everything is quiet up to be about 2 metres away, but I could live with that, since as soon as I start playing it gets drowned out.

I like the JBL Monitors except for a small key range. When I first started my MP11SE with the JBL speakers my partner commented that it sounded like we had an actually piano in the house from the richness of sound from high to low. The problem is the sound of the notes between A5 and C6 with the C6 sounding the worst are just rough and ugly. I suspect this is the frequency region where both the main speaker and the tweeter are working together and for some reason it just doesn't work. Every time I play those notes, especially when I am listening hard to see if I am getting the sound I want when I'm playing it grates on me.

One of the things that concerns me about studio monitors is they are designed for recording work, for highlighting where there are problems with the sound. They are not necessarily designed for listening pleasure, so I am not even certain that going down the monitor route is the right way to go. The room with my DP is not large and I think therefore going large with speakers is not the right answer.

Last edited by KevinM; 12/08/19 04:45 AM.
Re: Yamaha HS5 and Mp11se Need help with sound [Re: RubyC] #2921059 12/08/19 06:27 PM
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I just posted my thoughts in the "8" nearfield" thread a few minutes ago about using studio monitors with my MP11se. I've had a chance to experiment a little more than you and would like to help you. You may disagree with me completely but I hope it will also help you somehow. Please let me know what you think!

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