Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
70 registered members (albydooby, cebeema, camperbc, Animisha, cmoody31, chueh, Ankee, butchkoch, 22 invisible), 930 guests, and 496 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
K. Jarrett's improvisation on The Old Country #2911889 11/14/19 11:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
https://yadi.sk/d/KVsCkgUABCBmUQ

1. Piano improv. par;

2. Motivic fragments:

3. Linear fragments


Graphic display of the ratios of these two melodic elements on a time vector.

[Linked Image]

Each mature improviser is characterized by the presence of these two elements in various proportions. Anyone who starts to learn improvisation from scales risks risking falling into the field of boring dull, scale-like phrases that express nothing more than theory.



Last edited by Nahum; 11/14/19 11:19 AM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: K. Jarrett's improvisation on The Old Country [Re: Nahum] #2911912 11/14/19 12:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
In principle, such a division of melodic elements is somewhat crude, because phrasing also contains transitional stages from sequences of motives to linearity, and vice versa; however, then a more in-depth analysis of the melody is required. This categorization is more suitable for students studying improvisation, but not those who already own it to a large extent. .

Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nahum] #2912666 11/16/19 05:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
Bird - Night in Tunisia

https://yadi.sk/d/LcfR0ke4oisJhQ

[Linked Image]

There is an interesting order: usually linear fragments are framed by motivic elements ; in this case, the opposite. The initial break leads to the first phrase; the last line elegantly transfers the baton to a trumpeter. Nevertheless, the balance is in favor of motivic fragments.

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nahum] #2912704 11/16/19 08:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 710
D
Dfrankjazz Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 710
this is really cool Nahum!

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nahum] #2912706 11/16/19 08:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
Thanks, Dave!

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nahum] #2913003 11/17/19 12:55 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 75
N
Nip Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by Nahum
Anyone who starts to learn improvisation from scales risks risking falling into the field of boring dull, scale-like phrases that express nothing more than theory.


When teachers introduce Modes real early I object strongly.
Useful for chord analysis etc but really start painting student into a corner, kind of.

Even when doing the most common chords, dominant 7th, you start loosing the scale.

Why teach someone depending on the starting note in a scale?

I usually get a pitch in my head and want to find that straight away - so intervals - hearing them, from last note, is the key, I think, That's what I am working towards anyway, whether guitar, bass or keyboards.


Kawai MP7SE - Hammond XK3c - Synthesizers
Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nahum] #2913005 11/17/19 01:08 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 75
N
Nip Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 75
Edit time expired.....

But it's a homecooked idea in my own kitchen.

Motivic - I'm thinking jazz and how a jazz version of any song is a theme, could be very short, and just come back in between. How you do that is bringning audience back in if on a wild detour out there.

If we don't connect at all
- yeah this is a virtuoso maybe we think
but do we feel something?

Our brain seeks pattern - without any pattern we are lost.


Kawai MP7SE - Hammond XK3c - Synthesizers
Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nip] #2913025 11/17/19 04:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
Originally Posted by Nip


Our brain seeks pattern - without any pattern we are lost.


Moreover!
I am very sorry that there is no translation into English of the work of Vladimir Dashkevich "Theory of Intonation" (1986), where he continues to develop this theory, 110 years after the appearance of the first work about intonation of Boleslav Yavorsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleslav_Yavorsky . I think this is a very interesting and important work. Between various statements of the author, sometimes quite controversial, the following stand out: the most powerful means of intonational influence on the human psyche is Musically - Poetic Intonation ([/i]MPI), which under certain conditions creates an intonation resonance with individuals and large masses. Intonation resonance causes a group reaction in the form of dance, singing, marching. But its impact can be even deeper - when a new thought arises for a social group, its transmission becomes possible precisely due to intonation resonance. The art of music and poetry begins with it. In other words, the art of music and poetry is the art of the emergence of intonation resonance.

That is, the brain also needs resonant intonation communication with others!

Last edited by Nahum; 11/17/19 04:26 AM.
Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nahum] #2913806 11/19/19 12:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 201
JazzPianoOnline Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 201
Thank you for this analysis.

I agree that the long standing obsession with modes is not the correct approach (certainly not a comprehensive one).

I feel it really comes down to teaching students how to construct a melody: how to use chord tones on strong beats, departing from them via step (chord scales) and skip (arpeggios) and then discussing how to incorporate chromaticism through the use of non harmonic tones (approach patterns).

I invite you to look at my online course "Improvisation- The Concept" which demonstrates this approach using a Hank Mobley transcription.

https://www.jazzpianoonline.com/courses/improv-the-concept


Bill
bill@jazzpianoonline.com
www.JazzPianoOnline.com
Online Jazz Piano Lessons
Yamaha C7 Disklavier DC7ENSPRO
Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nahum] #2914130 11/20/19 08:11 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 413
I
indigo_dave Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
I
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 413


Nice work Nahum.

Aside from the various major and minor scales, I only really learned the dorian and diminished scales with any fluency. I've long thought that Bach was an influence on Jarrett's motivic soloing. And going back to his '70's American quartet with his with the more "free" styled playing I've speculated that Jarrett's solo lines were also influenced by Bartok (as say, in the 4th String Quartet).

Part of my practice routine is to sight read thru a handful of Bach's Well Tempered Clavier preludes and fugues , very slowly - nowhere near performance speed. I believe these help condition the mind and finger coordination in playing motivic figures as opposed to longer scalar lines. Of course what works for some may not work for others.

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nahum] #2914249 11/20/19 12:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
Thanks , Indigo Dave!

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: JazzPianoOnline] #2914479 11/21/19 03:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 189
C
Cudo Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 189
Originally Posted by JazzPianoOnline

I agree that the long standing obsession with modes is not the correct approach

who thought modes were everything was in any case wrong. Motif/melody formation, however, requires a certain basic knowledge that includes also the chord/scale theory.

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nip] #2914481 11/21/19 04:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,429
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,429
Originally Posted by Nip
Why teach someone depending on the starting note in a scale?

A quick thought and sort of question. In jazz, are modes really thought of in terms of starting note of a scale? Like, Lydian, for example: do you think of it as "starting on 4 of a major scale" or do you think of it as a raised 4th degree and maybe related to a particular chord? This is a question btw. I hope it doesn't distract from the thread.

Re: Motivic vs linearic improvisation [Re: Nahum] #2914485 11/21/19 04:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
N
Nahum Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,169
Originally Posted by Cudo
, however, requires a certain basic knowledge that includes also the chord/scale theory.

Fundamentally disagree! A five-year-old child with a natural musicality can easily invent a motive by singing - if I remember myself.

Last edited by Nahum; 11/21/19 04:27 AM.

ad
Rob Mullins Holiday Album
Rob Mullins Holiday Album

Rob is an amazing jazz pianist in LA,a composer, and a friend of mine.
Frank B. / Piano World
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
Christmas Ornaments Music Theme
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
NEW Roland RD4000 Keyboard
by Mr Jazz Man - 12/14/19 07:41 AM
Keyboard Action
by Mr Jazz Man - 12/14/19 07:31 AM
ABRSM aural exam clapping pulse
by chueh - 12/14/19 06:43 AM
How to mentally prepare for a big performance?
by PracticingPianist - 12/14/19 01:24 AM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics195,647
Posts2,901,471
Members95,232
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3