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Re: clicking Kawai [Re: magicpiano] #2888543 09/09/19 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
From that video it's difficult to say if it's the same type of click noise. In my case it's not a plastic sound. It's more as if something sticky remained attached to the bottom of the key when I release it after a full depress.


Ah, then it's not the same. Mine is a plastic sound that I hear when I press the key, not on the release. The many clicky noises of Kawai :-/

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Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2888577 09/09/19 10:52 AM
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Your CA78 has a wooden action (GFII) that is very different from mine (RH3 synthetic action), so I guessed you had a different issue.

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2888591 09/09/19 11:45 AM
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Why not visit the Kawai Grand Feel key clinic?

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2888805 09/10/19 03:52 AM
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Here is my clicking sound. Got it fixed two years ago. A technician applied grease to every key. But now it's back again. I think I will call the technician and let him apply some more grease.

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2888874 09/10/19 07:29 AM
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From the above video I can hear a plastic click noise when you press some keys. My issue is different: I hear a slightly sticky noise when I release a full-pressed key, but I have to say it's much less annoying than your click noise.

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: MacMacMac] #2889055 09/10/19 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I don't think that this derailment has derailed the thread. Not at all.

[Linked Image]

That train derailment must surely have made clicking noises. So it's quite on topic, eh?


That would make a great scenario for a modeller . . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: clicking Kawai [Re: LarryK] #2894445 09/26/19 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by magicpiano
What was this thread talking about? Mechanical wrist watches? WiFi extenders? Another little derailment here... grin


In my experience, derailments are often more interesting than the main line. I think we got onto mechanical devices vs digital devices. My apologies.

I was just amused that someone else is happily using the Velop. I would have tried the Google one but it seems to be out of stock until October.


If anyone cares for a Velop update, I have it running reliably with seven nodes in an 800 square foot apartment. Nothing succeeds like overkill. The Google solution was a complete disappointment and got returned for a refund. I guess most of the rooms in my place could double as Faraday cages.

Last edited by LarryK; 09/26/19 11:17 AM.

Yamaha U1 Silent Piano
Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2910864 11/11/19 04:43 PM
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Hey, so a month ago I bought a brand new Kawai cn29. I love this piano. Sounds great, feels great. For the price, this thing is pretty much perfect for me.

And a week ago the middle C started 'clicking' after playing it. Which kind of sucks, because it's just the right pitch, that you can hear it over the music you're playing if you know it's there. As it only took a month to develop, I'm assuming, that this will over time get worse and it's already bothering me.

I'll go to my piano dealer and ask him if Kawai will repair it or if they can trade it for a new one. Right now I'm assuming, that this is an issue that every Kawai with this mechanic has.

I don't really have a point to make, just wanted to through this out there. I'll update once I hear back from my dealer.

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2911046 11/12/19 06:06 AM
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What type of click is it? A slightly sticky sound when you release a full depressed key or a plastic click as you press the key (like in the video posted above)?

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: magicpiano] #2911247 11/12/19 04:04 PM
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I have both a sound during pressing and a sound when releasing. I would describe both sounds as 'plasticy' or maybe 'sticky', they are very similar. I tried to record a video, but the sound is only barely audible due to a low-quality microphone. But some of the keys have definitely developed this sound.

Like I said, not loud, but noticeable.

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2911258 11/12/19 04:47 PM
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Having owned the last three generations of wooden keyboards for the CA63 CA93 CA95 CA67, there has not been any clicking nor any issues at all. Just fyi ...


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
A Tired, Retired, Dreamer ...
Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2911445 11/13/19 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by spacewhale
I have both a sound during pressing and a sound when releasing. I would describe both sounds as 'plasticy' or maybe 'sticky', they are very similar. I tried to record a video, but the sound is only barely audible due to a low-quality microphone. But some of the keys have definitely developed this sound.

Like I said, not loud, but noticeable.

About the sticky sound you can hear when you release a full depressed key, I think that's just the way the RH3 action is designed. My thought is that the sticky noise is related to the amount of grease that Kawai places inside the keys mechanics. If you read the service manual of a CN27 (which has the same RH3 action of the CN37, CN29 and CN39) you will see that for each key there are 7 points where is applied some grease. One of these points is on an axis that is located directly under the frontal part of each key. When the DP is brand new you don't hear these sticky sounds, I think because the grease is evenly distributed along the frontal axis under the key. But with time and intense playing, excess grease tends to accumulate at the bottom of the key causing the sticky sound when you release the key from a full depressing of it. Maybe some units have a little more grease than others so they could develop this sticky sound before others... However, this sticky sound is not audible at all if you play at a standard volume with the internal speakers or if you play with headphones so, personally, I can live with it. And we have to consider that an action from an acoustic piano is much louder than our DPs.

But if you hear a plastic click sound as soon as you press a key (not when you release it), after just one month of use, then I think that could be a defect of your specific unit and it should be repaired.

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: McBuster] #2911449 11/13/19 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by McBuster
Having owned the last three generations of wooden keyboards for the CA63 CA93 CA95 CA67, there has not been any clicking nor any issues at all. Just fyi ...

Yes, usually Kawai wooden actions are rated as the most quiet. Had you a similar experience with plastic actions?

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: magicpiano] #2911514 11/13/19 10:26 AM
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Never had a plastic action ...


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
A Tired, Retired, Dreamer ...
Re: clicking Kawai [Re: magicpiano] #2911643 11/13/19 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
[quote=spacewhale]About the sticky sound you can hear when you release a full depressed key, I think that's just the way the RH3 action is designed.


I don't think so. Otherwise the click would be present from day one and on every single key. If it is designed, then it is a bad design.

In ES8's case, besides the annoying clicks, I think this "design" feature is behind loud notes that the piano plays on occasion. Are the higher end actions based on sensors other than conductive ruber contacts?


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2911668 11/13/19 04:36 PM
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Maybe I have not used the right words, but when I said is just the way it's designed, I didn't mean that the engineers want you hear that noise, but just that it's natural to me that this action could develop such little sticky noises considering how many grease points there are for each key and where they are located. Yes, it could be just an imperfect design. But you know what? I think it's better to have more lubricant that makes keys mechanics last longer, even if a little noisy, rather than an ultra-quiet action that breaks down earlier than expected. Of course, if you could have both the things it would be better, but I think it's very difficult to make a plastic mechanics with weighted keys that lasts long and doesn't develop some noises over time.

About the "loud notes" I think that in many cases it's just a matter of dirt around the contacts. There are videos on the web where you can see how keyboard actions with some problematic keys return to be perfect after some good contacts cleaning.

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: magicpiano] #2912366 11/15/19 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
Maybe I have not used the right words, but when I said is just the way it's designed, I didn't mean that the engineers want you hear that noise, but just that it's natural to me that this action could develop such little sticky noises considering how many grease points there are for each key and where they are located. Yes, it could be just an imperfect design. But you know what? I think it's better to have more lubricant that makes keys mechanics last longer, even if a little noisy, rather than an ultra-quiet action that breaks down earlier than expected. Of course, if you could have both the things it would be better, but I think it's very difficult to make a plastic mechanics with weighted keys that lasts long and doesn't develop some noises over time.

About the "loud notes" I think that in many cases it's just a matter of dirt around the contacts. There are videos on the web where you can see how keyboard actions with some problematic keys return to be perfect after some good contacts cleaning.


About the clicks, I may tell you for sure they are not caused by the action. Instead they are caused by the contact strips. I just replaced several in the ES8 and the new ones (purchased here) make no click at all (let's hope they keep like this after a few weeks).

Regarding grease, ES8's RH3 has grease only where the keys pivot and AFAICT on the point where the keys push the hammers. The part of the mechanism that actuate on the contacts is clean, made of nylon, delrin or similar (slippery) plastic material.

Finally, about dirt on contacts, the strips are built in such a way that dirt does not penetrate in the contacts. The only way bad contact to develop is on the PCB contacts (carbon) and the conductive silicon rubber contacts themselves. I think the loud notes are caused by firmware flaw: on rare conditions, there are some sort of contact bounce that the firmware interprets as key pressed hard. Unfortunately, hard to reproduce, otherwise they would have already fixed it.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: clicking Kawai [Re: EVC2017] #2912386 11/15/19 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by EVC2017
About the clicks, I may tell you for sure they are not caused by the action. Instead they are caused by the contact strips. I just replaced several in the ES8 and the new ones (purchased here) make no click at all (let's hope they keep like this after a few weeks).
So, if you hear a "click" as soon as you press a key, that could be a defective rubber. But what about an eventual sticky sound on release?
Quote

Regarding grease, ES8's RH3 has grease only where the keys pivot and AFAICT on the point where the keys push the hammers. The part of the mechanism that actuate on the contacts is clean, made of nylon, delrin or similar (slippery) plastic material.
I don't know if it's legal to post an image from a service manual or a link, but if you google, you can easily find the service manual of the CN27. It has the same RH3 action of the ES8, CN27/37/29/39 and MP7SE. On the service manual (page 20) you can see a list and a drawing of the "Grease Points". There are 7 grease points for each key.
Quote


Finally, about dirt on contacts, the strips are built in such a way that dirt does not penetrate in the contacts. The only way bad contact to develop is on the PCB contacts (carbon) and the conductive silicon rubber contacts themselves. I think the loud notes are caused by firmware flaw: on rare conditions, there are some sort of contact bounce that the firmware interprets as key pressed hard. Unfortunately, hard to reproduce, otherwise they would have already fixed it.

Unfortunately, it's not impossible for dirt to accumulate near or even under the rubbers:

[Linked Image]

Here you can find a video of a Kawai CN23 with some keys not working or working very loud. The guy fixed the problems by cleaning the contacts under the rubbers (you can jump to about 4:39 in the video):

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: spacewhale] #2912390 11/15/19 12:02 PM
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Yes, that's a fact. I'm going to have to get off my @ss soon and clean my contacts. I get occasional full-volume sound from G3, and constant too-loud sound from severl keys in the 4th and 5th octaves.
And B3 and D4 need lube.

Moan! I hate doing this work.

Re: clicking Kawai [Re: magicpiano] #2912440 11/15/19 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
So, if you hear a "click" as soon as you press a key, that could be a defective rubber. But what about an eventual sticky sound on release?


I hear the clicks when keys are released. I have no explanation based on the looks of the removed strips (they look normal) but I suppose they degrade a little after some time of use and produce the noise when they go to their resting position (remember they work as springs for the contacts).

Originally Posted by magicpiano
On the service manual (page 20) you can see a list and a drawing of the "Grease Points". There are 7 grease points for each key.


Thanks for the hint. wink Pdf found and saved for future reference. Notice there is no grease point on the point the hammer lever contats the key contacts.

Originally Posted by magicpiano
Unfortunately, it's not impossible for dirt to accumulate near or even under the rubbers


I agree. Water and dirt always find a way. ES8's strips do not have that groove on the edges so I suppose they provide a tigher seal. But it is possible after a few years some dirt may penetrate (or earlier for dirtier more polluted places). It's been less than a year that I last opened it the interior of the piano was very clean and so the boards and under the contacts.

Thanks for the video link.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
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