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Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: GNkyrios] #2909140
11/07/19 10:41 AM
11/07/19 10:41 AM
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Quote
This is not an algorithm issue. The polyphony in the Pianist mode is less than in sound mode due to the increased DSP processing and multi-channel sampling and I think this is what your noticing when doing your tests.

That's a strange answer. So they confirm that the polyphony is lower in pianist mode. But with that confirmation, in my eyes it is even more an algorithm issue: The algorithm should be fine-tuned to better handle situations where the lower polyphony can be a problem.

Very obviously, the algorithm already prioritizes notes that are still held down with your fingers over notes that are "only" held with the pedal. As evidenced by the fact that the bass note stealing experiment cannot be reproduced when holding the bass notest down manually.

So why cannot the algorithm also prioritize notes that are held with the pedal and that have not be replayed (in the experiment the bass notes) over other notest that are held down with the pedal that have been replayed?

Since such a "second level" prioritization is obviously not done by the algorithm, in my eyes it very much is an algorithm issue.

(Now, they could say that such a modification to the algorithm is not possible because the hardware is not capable enough to support such a more intricate prioritization, but they didn't say that.)

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Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: JoBert] #2909147
11/07/19 11:10 AM
11/07/19 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Quote
This is not an algorithm issue. The polyphony in the Pianist mode is less than in sound mode due to the increased DSP processing and multi-channel sampling and I think this is what your noticing when doing your tests.



(Now, they could say that such a modification to the algorithm is not possible because the hardware is not capable enough to support such a more intricate prioritization, but they didn't say that.)


No support person is going to acknowledge what could be perceived as a bug unless there is a plan to fix it. In today's environment there are no bugs, just features or anomalies. Like the NU1X loud note issue. It was a known aspect of the DP that is even mentioned in the user manual in the troubleshooting section. No bugs here, a known anomaly. At least it was until the most recent update came out and with virtually no fanfare from Yamaha the loud note issue disappeared, much to the delight of NU1X owners everywhere. smile


Yamaha NU1X, Sennheiser HD 599 headphones, dabling with PianoTeq
Formerly known as oneilt130
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Peddler100] #2909163
11/07/19 12:16 PM
11/07/19 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by oneilt130
Like the NU1X loud note issue. It was a known aspect of the DP that is even mentioned in the user manual in the troubleshooting section. No bugs here, a known anomaly. At least it was until the most recent update came out and with virtually no fanfare from Yamaha the loud note issue disappeared, much to the delight of NU1X owners everywhere. smile

But when one 'fixes' a 'feature', doesn't that make the 'fix' actually a 'bug'? 😂


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: JoBert] #2909170
11/07/19 12:29 PM
11/07/19 12:29 PM
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Yeah, that seems very doable, the problem is, do they care about an specific case like this? certainly not every piece has you repeating the same notes, in others you could be doing something else and still lose the oldest notes.

Maybe the next model will have a better processor. Are they using the same as older models, or is the DSP contained in the new Onkyo parts?


My piano history in about 15 months: Artesia PA88w -> Yamaha P45 -> Kawai CN 24 -> Kawai CN 37 -> Kawai CA 78
Currently working on: Clair de Lune - Debussy, Waltz No 64 no 2 - Chopin.
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: GNkyrios] #2909237
11/07/19 03:32 PM
11/07/19 03:32 PM
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Glad to hear you got a substantive response. I have to wonder what the difference is between a note held down via key versus pedal though. On an acoustic piano there is no difference, so it seems odd to me that there would be a priority between the two. Are there situations where this prioritization comes into play?

Also, if it is a polyphony issue, then where are the notes being stolen from when you hold down the key? I can't detect a poly cutoff in this case, so it sounds like they would be better off not assigning a priority in the first place and just treating everything the same as when the note is held down?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2909249
11/07/19 03:57 PM
11/07/19 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by oneilt130
Like the NU1X loud note issue. It was a known aspect of the DP that is even mentioned in the user manual in the troubleshooting section. No bugs here, a known anomaly. At least it was until the most recent update came out and with virtually no fanfare from Yamaha the loud note issue disappeared, much to the delight of NU1X owners everywhere. smile

But when one 'fixes' a 'feature', doesn't that make the 'fix' actually a 'bug'? 😂


I think the term you are looking for is 'feature enhancement'. smile


Yamaha NU1X, Sennheiser HD 599 headphones, dabling with PianoTeq
Formerly known as oneilt130
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Gombessa] #2909254
11/07/19 04:18 PM
11/07/19 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Also, if it is a polyphony issue, then where are the notes being stolen from when you hold down the key? I can't detect a poly cutoff in this case, so it sounds like they would be better off not assigning a priority in the first place and just treating everything the same as when the note is held down?

They are being stolen from the notes in the treble. Like this (the numbers at the beginning of each line are the "used up" polyphony):

1-2: Two bass notes
3-8: Six treble notes
9-14: The same six treble notes a second time
15-20: and a third time
21-26: fourth time
27-32: 5th time
33-38: 6th time
39-44: 7th time
45-50: 8th time
51-56: 9th time
57-62: 10th time
63-68: 11th time (still the same six treble notes repeated)
up until here, all notes still ring. "Used up" polyphony is 68.
At some point during the 12th repeat of the 6th treble notes, the bass notes cut out. I'm too lazy to check exactly when, so let's just say that the max is 70, so:
69-70: First two notes of the 12th time
still works, i.e. 70 polyphony used and all notes still ringing.
But now for the remaining 4 notes of the 12th repeat, the polyphony max is exceeded. So four notes must be stolen somewhere.

And it seems that the algorithm simply steals the 4 oldest notes that are not held by a key, but just by the pedal.

If the bass keys are not held down, that means that the algorithm steals the notes 1-4, i.e. the two bass notes plus the first two "oldest" treble notes. That's the anomaly we hear, as the bass notes suddenly cut out.
But if the bass keys are held down, the algorithm steals the notes 3-6, i.e. the 4 oldest trebles notes, while the two bass notes are left alone.
And of course you cannot hear this stealing, because those 4 "old" treble notes have been replayed 11 times since then, and these newer instances of those notes totally drown out the notes that are being stolen anyway.

Which is why I think that a simple change to the algorithm (if the hardware supports it) would fix this. Instead of "steal the oldest note that is held with the pedal" (notes 1-4 in our example, i.e. including the bass notes), it should be "steal the oldest note that is held with the pedal *and* that has been replayed since then (notes 3-6 in our example), only if you don't find any, fall back to the original rule and simply steal the oldest note that is held with the pedal".

So we have a hardware limit (=reduced polyphony) with a less than optimal note stealing algorithm.

The question is: Would it be possible to implement the improved algorithm? I.e. would the hardware be able to run it in real time?

If yes, then we are looking at a problem in the software that could (and imo should) be fixed.
If no, then it is indeed a hardware limitation: The hardware then limits not only the polyphony, but also the note stealing logic.

BTW, to make this clear: After >20 months of playing, I've never noticed this during actual playing. Only in the above experiment. This is more of an academic concern than an actual problem. (But still, if the algorithm can be improved, then it would be great if it indeed would.)

Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: JoBert] #2909281
11/07/19 05:29 PM
11/07/19 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert

And of course you cannot hear this stealing, because those 4 "old" treble notes have been replayed 11 times since then, and these newer instances of those notes totally drown out the notes that are being stolen anyway.


While that makes sense, I just find it odd that a repeated note takes up more polyphony in such a linear fashion. You would think each time the hammer strikes a string, whatever sound results would take over the polyphony of the old string (and maybe x additional polyphony for associated resonances)...But hey, what do I know...

Originally Posted by JoBert

BTW, to make this clear: After >20 months of playing, I've never noticed this during actual playing. Only in the above experiment. This is more of an academic concern than an actual problem. (But still, if the algorithm can be improved, then it would be great if it indeed would.)


Same. I've never noticed any dropped notes, but I doubt I'd notice any dropped notes on a low-poly DP like a Nord Piano 3 either....

That said, I'm all for a more intelligent note-stealing algorithm. Treble notes over bass, repeated notes over single notes, soft notes over loud, etc.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: JoBert] #2909322
11/07/19 07:47 PM
11/07/19 07:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by JoBert
After >20 months of playing, I've never noticed this during actual playing. Only in the above experiment. This is more of an academic concern than an actual problem.


This.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Kawai James] #2909323
11/07/19 07:53 PM
11/07/19 07:53 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by JoBert
After >20 months of playing, I've never noticed this during actual playing. Only in the above experiment. This is more of an academic concern than an actual problem.
This.

Not purely academic. As we learned on this forum, it can occur naturally in some non-Western musical traditions.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2909328
11/07/19 08:01 PM
11/07/19 08:01 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Not purely academic. As we learned on this forum, it can occur naturally in some non-Western musical traditions.


Possibly. However, I don't believe the recording that Vikas shared in his thread was an example of non-Western music.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Kawai James] #2909331
11/07/19 08:20 PM
11/07/19 08:20 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Not purely academic. As we learned on this forum, it can occur naturally in some non-Western musical traditions.


Possibly. However, I don't believe the recording that Vikas shared in his thread was an example of non-Western music.

The example sounded Western with someone's foot asleep on the damper pedal. But Indian ragas in particular have that open string sitar-like sound:



I think the above might be hard to do on any DP with limited polyphony (non-modeled). Thoughts?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2909335
11/07/19 08:39 PM
11/07/19 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I think the above might be hard to do on any DP with limited polyphony (non-modeled). Thoughts?


I thought Pianoteq had polyphony limited at 128?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2909338
11/07/19 08:55 PM
11/07/19 08:55 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the above might be hard to do on any DP with limited polyphony (non-modeled). Thoughts?


If by "do" you mean "play", I believe the piece in this example could be played by most digital pianos, as new notes are constantly being retriggered.

However, whether or not the results would be sonically comparable to an acoustic piano playing the same piece is harder to judge. Certainly, holding the damper pedal for extended periods in this way in order to allow all of the strings to resonate, may be challenging for digital pianos to reproduce.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Gombessa] #2909383
11/08/19 02:48 AM
11/08/19 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I think the above might be hard to do on any DP with limited polyphony (non-modeled). Thoughts?


I thought Pianoteq had polyphony limited at 128?

256, which is strangely low unless it is actually counted like 1 note=1 polyphony value.

Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: GNkyrios] #2909390
11/08/19 03:36 AM
11/08/19 03:36 AM
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So now we know for sure that in Pianist mode the max polyphony is considerably reduced (about 4 times?) compared with Sound mode, because the SK-EX Rendering Engine uses more demanding algorithms, but evidently the processing power of the newest digital pianos has not been improved (or maybe they improved it, but not enough) compared with previous generation models that uses just the HI-XL engine (the same of the Sound mode).

Anyway, a better algorithm for stealing notes is definitely possible and it would not require better hardware (but better programming). Better hardware is required only if you want to achieve a greater max polyphony.

As JoBert suggested I think that when you have the pedal depressed and the hardware reaches its max polyphony, the algorithm should steal notes FIRST from the oldest "replayed" notes, then, if there are no more replayed overlapping notes, it should steal from the oldest note not held with your fingers. This could allow to never have the perception of a lack of polyphony, even when you play always with the pedal depressed.

P.S.: Roland digital pianos with modeled engines should not have this problem, being that they claims their algorithms allow for "unlimited" polyphony. Of course it's not that it's unlimited... It's just that the particular way in which they work makes unnecessary for them to have more than 88 notes of polyphony.

Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: Nordomus] #2909391
11/08/19 03:37 AM
11/08/19 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I think the above might be hard to do on any DP with limited polyphony (non-modeled). Thoughts?


I thought Pianoteq had polyphony limited at 128?

256, which is strangely low unless it is actually counted like 1 note=1 polyphony value.

Yes, that's the case (1=1).

Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: GNkyrios] #2909487
11/08/19 09:01 AM
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Well, its a limitation, maybe it doesnt bother that much, but i dont know, i dont like knowing or realizing these things about the stuff i carefully researched to buy. Like when i had some faulty keys on the CN37 (not factory issues tho), normally playing they didnt affect, but it just bothered me knowing that they were there.

Still, i think the trading some processing power for the new engine is worth it, wish it was mentioned tho, and in any case, if you need, you can use the other engine, now it makes more sense that they include the previous 2 engines.


And about improving the algorithm, i think it will only fix one side of the limitation, imagine you are doing a chord on different octaves back and forth, this would still happen, and the algorithm wouldnt be able to know wich note is better to drop first.


My piano history in about 15 months: Artesia PA88w -> Yamaha P45 -> Kawai CN 24 -> Kawai CN 37 -> Kawai CA 78
Currently working on: Clair de Lune - Debussy, Waltz No 64 no 2 - Chopin.
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: magicpiano] #2909501
11/08/19 09:27 AM
11/08/19 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
So now we know for sure that in Pianist mode the max polyphony is considerably reduced (about 4 times?) compared with Sound mode,


Well, we don't actually know if HI-XL has a full 256 notes of polyphony (all the speculation of stereo samples plus resonances taking up additional poly still apply).

Polyphony limitation is still a non-issue in any DP imo unless it's encountered in actual playing (and there are premium DPs with significantly lower poly than what is reported here for Pianist Mode).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai CA78 polyphony issue [Re: GNkyrios] #2909562
11/08/19 12:29 PM
11/08/19 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GNkyrios
Well, its a limitation, maybe it doesnt bother that much, but i dont know, i dont like knowing or realizing these things about the stuff i carefully researched to buy. Like when i had some faulty keys on the CN37 (not factory issues tho), normally playing they didnt affect, but it just bothered me knowing that they were there.
An unfortunate faulty unit is not the same thing as an hardware limitation...
Quote


Still, i think the trading some processing power for the new engine is worth it, wish it was mentioned tho, and in any case, if you need, you can use the other engine, now it makes more sense that they include the previous 2 engines.
There is just one other engine, apart from the SK-EX Rendering Engine, and that's the HI-XL engine. wink
Quote


And about improving the algorithm, i think it will only fix one side of the limitation, imagine you are doing a chord on different octaves back and forth, this would still happen, and the algorithm wouldnt be able to know wich note is better to drop first.
If you play "the same" chord at different octaves back and forth, there will be many overlapped notes every time you go back on the same chord already played before. So, the algorithm could drop first the old overlapped notes (if there are, of course) and this should avoid (or postpone) the feeling of dropped notes.

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