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Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2897355
10/05/19 03:36 PM
10/05/19 03:36 PM
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jinorden Offline OP
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Next week I get the pinblock material from a discarded piano. Don't know how many layers or type, for sure old. I intend to continue the experiments before I treat my piano. I'll ask this question now as it takes a few days to get all the answers.
If I use a 7.20 mm pin, what drill bit should I use? I read about that many times but because I don't understand or "feel" inches, feet, ounces and so on I always use the calculator. So I don't remember a lot. I just turned 60 which doesn't help memory either. I could try to look it up but why not ask first? Saves me time.
Any suggestions are welcome, I'll try to apply them. I'll use before and after torque measurements, 24 hours cure time, different number of glue drops, thin and "walmart" thick and different pin thicknesses to simulate tight or loose fits. Also applying at top, bottom and both, all measured before and after. Last, I'll cut the holes and check visually. I have some rosin, maybe I'll try, but I did it once on a bass single and it was squeaking like crazy. Initially it didn't hold at all, it would go back a semitone, now it had great torque. But the squeaking was unacceptable.
Ok, thanks for any ideas.


Last edited by jinorden; 10/05/19 03:42 PM. Reason: spelling as usual
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Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2897388
10/05/19 06:36 PM
10/05/19 06:36 PM
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Jinorden,

I would use the holes already in the old pinblock. Better simulation of real world conditions.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
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Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2897394
10/05/19 07:10 PM
10/05/19 07:10 PM
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Don't have original pins. But I could use some too.

Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2897453
10/06/19 01:05 AM
10/06/19 01:05 AM
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As Peter said, you should absolutely use the original holes with a suitably sized pin. If you drill fresh holes, they will have open pores that the old holes don't. The old holes with have a much more "burnished" surface which would hugely affect the way they absorb liquid. The old holes with also have a realistic front to back taper due to wear, which will give you much better real world information, as Peter said. I would almost go as far to say that newly drilled holes will possibly give you misleading results.

Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2897599
10/06/19 12:11 PM
10/06/19 12:11 PM
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Find some pins that pretty much drop into the existing holes for about 1/4 - 1/3 depth and then make contact and start tightening up as you screw or pound them in. That should approximate the size of the pins that were in there.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2897626
10/06/19 01:10 PM
10/06/19 01:10 PM
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Ando,
Ok, makes sense. Also less work for me. Will try different pins. But I don't have all sizes so I hope something will fit close enough.

Peter,
that's helpful, I'll follow your advice.

Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2900359
10/15/19 08:44 AM
10/15/19 08:44 AM
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I got the pinblock, it came cut in a few smaller pieces and I already conducted some experiments. What I found is that the results are inconsistent so you don't get reliable exact data. Still, ranges can be usefull. Problems I encountered: humidity and temperature changes (it came by truck), different torque right vs left, or after consecutive 1/8 turns, hard to get organized and write down all parameters. I am not sure the torque wrench is 100% reliable but for an aprox. range it should do.
Had other stuff to do so I stopped but I'll continue in a few days.

Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2900453
10/15/19 12:29 PM
10/15/19 12:29 PM
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Thank you for your continuing efforts - it's very interesting!

Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2900483
10/15/19 02:02 PM
10/15/19 02:02 PM
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Do I understand right, that this method is intended to fill a hole, when it is too wide, but not to repair cracks in the pinblock?

Last edited by Andymania; 10/15/19 02:03 PM.

excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2900493
10/15/19 02:33 PM
10/15/19 02:33 PM
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David, thanks! Would be great if anything usefull comes out of it.

Andymania, after reading on this subject on the forum, I drew the conclusion that this can work when the friction is too low due to pinblock age and wear. Also, might work if hair thin cracks have developed. Not likely when large cracks, usually bigger sections, have happened.

Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2900656
10/16/19 03:30 AM
10/16/19 03:30 AM
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It seems, as far as I can gather, that the use of CA is not solely about gap filling. From what I have read online, there is a reaction between the cyanoacrylate compounds in the adhesive, and the cellulose in the wood, to form cellulose cyanoacrylate. It's an exothermic reaction, and with paper tissues, which are mostly cellulose, they sometimes smoke if you put CA on them.

Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2909381
11/08/19 02:41 AM
11/08/19 02:41 AM
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I had some results for a while. I’m not sure how relevant they are but for me personally it was helpful. I understand better what happens with the glue. What makes this experiment unreliable is:

1. The torque wrench. I didn’t want to spend more than the $70 I paid for it, which means it might not be 100% consistent. Still, for a range estimate I think it was good enough.
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/6mstYFARwCEPQrii7[/img]


2. Didn’t have a variety of pins and holes dimenssions, so none was a very loose fit.
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/JNQ59dAwzJ9VjFkf7[/img]

3. Had only one 3 cp thin glue and two normal ones you get in a store.

I drove in the pins, some new, some old. Numbered them and poured glue, 2, 3, 5 drops at the bottom and noted that on a piece of paper.
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/u6R7PHSNZUBMqYZHA[/img]

After a day I measured torque. All lost a 10-15 % of it. I put some more. Checked in a few days, no improvement.
On another block piece I did the same with same results but I went ahead and applied at the top too. No higher torque regardless of number of drops.

Next, I cut through the holes with the bandsaw.
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/Gs6mXrd4xnwBLGAK9[/img]

I can see 4-5 mm discoloration and shinny surface at the top and bottom, so that’s how much the glue penetrates when pins are a tight fit. Only after applying 2-3 times did the glue pool at the bottom of the pin.
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/M7MiV7Jz2eLMFoTJ9[/img]

I also cut one old empty hole to compare: no shine or discoloration.
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/ACdhPY6aBtYjRZnh7[/img]

My conclusions (guesses really) are, when a pinblock is tight, applying glue works more like a lubricant, gives a smoother surface and reduces grip. Normally a technician would never treat a piano unless it’s really bad and loose, that's maybe the reason there are no reports on loss of grip. So for a succesful result of a glue treatment, space between pin and wood might be necessary.
Thin or not, the glue goes in a few mm, but not dripping through to the other side, at least not the glues I used. While possible, I don’t think other glue types do that either.

Applying glue both sides vs only at the bottom didn’t show any significant differences, so I wouldn’t flip a grand, too much effort and risk for unsure results.

I think trying to measure torque on a piano is not very useful beyond getting a rough idea of the general tightness of the pins, because the static torque slightly changes with pin position change.

Bottom line, with a bad, loose block I would do it, it might work, if it doesn't, new pin block becomes necessary.

Last edited by jinorden; 11/08/19 02:43 AM.
Re: CA glue pinblock treatment [Re: jinorden] #2909407
11/08/19 04:37 AM
11/08/19 04:37 AM
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Very interesting, thank you for posting these results!

Your conclusion brings us pretty exactly to where we were already at empirically, but now you have a demonstrated and measured methodology along the way.

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