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#2908870 11/06/19 01:43 PM
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Looking to purchase. Likely going with Kawai (though still actually undecided as to which one, probably the 78) and I encountered the Casio Celviano (which is almost an anagram of Clavinova....) unexpectedly at a piano store. Ok, it didn't turn a corner and bump into me, but I never even heard of it until I saw it. Knew nothing of its reputation. Although I quickly realized that it's not a hybrid in the way that most people use the term, I thought the concept of hammers is really cool and I really wanted to like it. In the store I tried the gp300, because they didn't have the 400 on display, but presumably if I bought it I'd get the 400. Despite wanting to love it, I had a couple of issues with it. So I wanted to get input to help in decision-making.

I have a few concerns.

(1) I'm not sure whether it was partly due to the fact that I was battling a head cold, but it just sounded muddy. By it --- I mean all three versions of the grands (Vienna, Hamburg, Berlin). Even with headphones, but especially with speakers. Now I actually don't like the super bright Yamaha sound, so it's not like my baseline is super bright. Also, I tried the 300, not the 400. Is the 400 noticeably better in terms of tone generation (apparently more resonance, similar to the 500 --- but I didn't know that until I was done trying it out)? Secondarily, is the 400 better than the 300 due to speaker placement?
(2) I read about the issues with sustain not lasting that long on any of the Celvianos, but didn't really notice it in store (I wasn't looking for it either, since I only read afterwards). Is this a REAL issue? Confusing as there are clearly some classical musicians who are far ahead of me musically who love their Celvianos.....
(3) I saw some feedback on these forums about the headphone amplifier being inadequate. Given that the only reason I am not purchasing an acoustic upright is that I need to be able to play/practice with headphones (Which is NOT to say that it is my preferred way to play -- I DO want the speakers to sound good), this would be a deal-breaker if it was really a big issue. IS IT?

So, aside from the stupid gold plaque attesting to the collaboration with C. Bechstein (please, put that in the brochure, NOT ON THE ACTUAL PIANO!), I loved the 'aesthetic' of this piano (Not in the "cool looking furniture" sense, cuz it aint pretty, but knowing that there are (resin) hammers, Bechstein-inspired (I know, I know, not 100% the same) keybed and keys, the concept is cool) ---- but obviously it's going to be mainly about sound. Are the criticisms above valid? Would anyone take one of these over the Kawai CA78? Am I foolish for being blown away by a visual instead of trusting my instinct? Thoughts, please......

Last edited by Eli26; 11/06/19 01:46 PM. Reason: typos and a clarification
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Lots of settings on the Casio that let you alter the sound. Press any of the preset piano buttons once or twice. you get bright and mellow versions of the three piano's. I find the Hamburg and Berlin good, I can do without the Vienna.

Try the grand piano modern sound next time you try it. You will be surprised how different that sounds from the three preset ones.

I don't find the short sustain an issue at all.

The headphone volume is not overly loud but loud enough. If you need more volume a $30 headphone amp will do the trick and this should not be an argument buying one piano over the other.

The 400 is larger then 300 and 500 if I remember correctly.

I don't regret buying mine at all.


When you play, never mind who listens to you. R.Schumann.

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Originally Posted by Eli26
...Are the criticisms above valid?


Your criticisms are valid. I agree with you entirely. The GP400 is a GP500 in a plainer (non shiny) case. In every other respect they are technically the same.

The GP400 and 500 allow for more in-depth sound adjustment and subsequent storing of the piano sounds you create. The GP300 allows some parameters to be edited but it's less comprehensive and I understand the results of your tweaking can't be saved.

The newer versions (GP310 and GP510) allegedly have longer sustain and sound louder (whether this is the case through headphones I can't say because I haven't played the new versions).

You are quite right to highlight the dubious 'hybrid' claim and the less-than-tasteful badging but these Casios are quite worthy little pianos and compare well with Clavinovas (which by the way are not "super bright" at all - quite the opposite in my opinion), CN and CA series Kawais and the HP/LX range of Roland pianos.

The only important thing is whether you like them. I found them a bit disappointing through speakers personally and the cabinets seemed a bit creaky to me but if the piano sounds appeal and you like the feel of the (extremely agile) action then you can't go too far wrong. If it were my money I'd choose a Kawai CA78 or possibly a comparable Clavinova but the Casios are certainly a valid choice.

Good luck!

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I just had my GP500 delivered 2 weeks ago and love it. In terms of your concerns, I don't find the sound muddy at all. The last time I tried it before I bought it I thought it sounded quite muffled. It turned out this was because of all the promotional material laid across the top and as soon as I moved it, it sounded great. That said that wouldn't affect the sound via heaphones so maybe it's just personal taste! I do agree to an extent about the sustain. Again I only really noticed it after reading about it on here. If you play a chord and hold it it will go on for ages, but there is definitely a decay in the first few seconds that could be better. But to he honest I don't really notice it during normal play. Lastly the sound on the headphones to me is fine. I got a pair of AKG K240 last week and like them, but I do need the volume up high to get it where I like. That said I have read these are not especially loud phones.

When I was choosing i tried the ca98 (along with various yamahas and rolands) I definitely prefered the casio, although I'm probably in the minority. I would definitely recommend the gp 400 or 500 over the 300. As said above the ability to edit the sound and save it is well worth it.

I also think it's worth playing all the ones on your short list a few times before deciding but when you are looking at pianos in this class there isn't really a bad choice to be made!

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Before spending $3k - $4k on something I will keep for a long time, I would definitely spend plenty of time playing both to see which one sounds and feels more inspiring. If you like both equally, see which one has a better warranty, which one you can get a better discount on...

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Around this price range, if you care a lot about authentic piano sound, I'd rather look for a used U1 (or similar) with the silent option. I'd agree that the GPs sound a bit muddy at default settings, don't know what tweaking is possible. In fact none of the digitals I've tried so far didn't sound quite like an acoustic (haven't tried the Yamaha and Kawai high-end hybrids though).

Digitals do have their upsides, but I guess the top range may not hold value particularly well, so I surely wouldn't buy one I wasn't totally and perfectly happy with. The CN39 costs much less than the top models, but it sound reasonably well compared to the them to me, and the key action surprisingly even felt a bit better (subjective - no expert). I'd probably already have bought it if the same thing was available in a portable form (the ES8 didn't feel exactly the same).

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It's surprising how there is still confusion about differences between those GP models. ALL of Casio GP have the same speakers and keyboard. GP400 is larger and has more advanced sound simulation, GP500 is in polished finish, other than that it's the same as GP400.That's all smile
I''ve seen informations that GPx10 pianos have betters speakers but on paper they are IDENTICAL to the ones in GP x00 series.

Last edited by Nordomus; 11/07/19 07:34 AM.
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So ... the most distinguishing feature among the Casio models is ... the price tag? smile

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I was certain I was going to love the Casio GP400 and it’s not a bad DP by any stretch, but when I tried it I was really underwhelmed for all the reasons the OP states. I have the CA78 and it’s terrific.


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I really like the action of the Casio GP-series and I think it's the best of them all (to me) except for the "real" actions from Yamaha and Kawais hybrid lines. One thing that I like about the GP 400 is that it is has the exact standard height of the note stand as a modern grand piano.


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Originally Posted by johanibraaten
I really like the action of the Casio GP-series and I think it's the best of them all (to me) except for the "real" actions from Yamaha and Kawais hybrid lines. One thing that I like about the GP 400 is that it is has the exact standard height of the note stand as a modern grand piano.

Yep I agree with all of that.

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Really hope this makes sense or I am going mad.

I have the CA78 and would recommend it ...BUT...

I tried it a few times at a place that had the acoustic grand pianos, hybrid pianos and DP's all in one large old stone warehouse. It was an amazing experience for a beginner. Things like the keys stepping as you press them (escapement? let off? etc) on the CA78 could be compared to a real grand (so many variations to choose from) and they were pretty close in terms of feel. The piano that blew me away was the Hybrid Aures K500 but so did the price tag!! There were some nice acoustic uprights too but I mainly wanted the 'privacy' of practising through headphones so the nearest contender the CA98 was put aside and CA78 won the day.

This is the big problem however, hence placing this reply here. You would need to transport my 11 foot x 8 foot x 8 foot music room to the shop to get the whole story and add the curtains and the shelves etc etc..
Everyone has opinions of the best piano the best sounds on a DP but no one will pick the same setup unless every room the piano is played in is identical and everyone had identical ears
Am I happy with the CA78? Oh yes!
Am I playing pianist mode regularly as I did in the shop? NO... because even though it is an amazing wall of sound and achievement boy do those noise waves soon crash together in my tiny room!

So I tend to play live at Grand Piano 2 and with headphones at Warm Grand 1 or Pianist mode EX.

The Kawai Tech who set it up for me said Warm Grand 2 was best for him at his house but it does not work in my room.

So my suggestion is try the pianos you feel you will like but where possible play them in as close an environment as you can to your music room.

Feel can be managed at the shop. I don't believe sound (headphones aside) can be compared to home use.

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Originally Posted by Nordomus
It's surprising how there is still confusion about differences between those GP models. ALL of Casio GP have the same speakers and keyboard. GP400 is larger and has more advanced sound simulation, GP500 is in polished finish, other than that it's the same as GP400.That's all smile
I''ve seen informations that GPx10 pianos have betters speakers but on paper they are IDENTICAL to the ones in GP x00 series.


https://music.casio.co.uk/gp510bp Caisio claims the new ones are better. There can be changes that don't show up in specs. As for the gpX00s, some have said that the sound differs because of different placement of speakers and/or different size of cabinet on the 400 (and maybe the different size affects the placement). But I have no idea if that is truly the case.

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Well I can only speak about GP300, GP400 and GP500 because those are the pianos I played on and there is no noticable difference between them in terms of sound projection.

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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Well I can only speak about GP300, GP400 and GP500 because those are the pianos I played on and there is no noticable difference between them in terms of sound projection.


Thanks. Who knows, maybe some of the 'differences' people are reporting are just due to the pianos in the store being closer or further from a wall, etc.....

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Originally Posted by Bobetski
Really hope this makes sense or I am going mad.

I have the CA78 and would recommend it ...BUT...

I tried it a few times at a place that had the acoustic grand pianos, hybrid pianos and DP's all in one large old stone warehouse. It was an amazing experience for a beginner. Things like the keys stepping as you press them (escapement? let off? etc) on the CA78 could be compared to a real grand (so many variations to choose from) and they were pretty close in terms of feel. The piano that blew me away was the Hybrid Aures K500 but so did the price tag!! There were some nice acoustic uprights too but I mainly wanted the 'privacy' of practising through headphones so the nearest contender the CA98 was put aside and CA78 won the day.

This is the big problem however, hence placing this reply here. You would need to transport my 11 foot x 8 foot x 8 foot music room to the shop to get the whole story and add the curtains and the shelves etc etc..
Everyone has opinions of the best piano the best sounds on a DP but no one will pick the same setup unless every room the piano is played in is identical and everyone had identical ears
Am I happy with the CA78? Oh yes!
Am I playing pianist mode regularly as I did in the shop? NO... because even though it is an amazing wall of sound and achievement boy do those noise waves soon crash together in my tiny room!

So I tend to play live at Grand Piano 2 and with headphones at Warm Grand 1 or Pianist mode EX.

The Kawai Tech who set it up for me said Warm Grand 2 was best for him at his house but it does not work in my room.

So my suggestion is try the pianos you feel you will like but where possible play them in as close an environment as you can to your music room.

Feel can be managed at the shop. I don't believe sound (headphones aside) can be compared to home use.



I think this is a really insightful comment. Makes A LOT of sense to me. Where it leaves me with regards to purchasing decision.... I'm not sure.

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Gp510 vids. I do notice some differences in the sound alittle more pleasing

New Casio video
https://youtu.be/jJgl81-SjgE

Bonner's first gp510 video
https://youtu.be/otg24pKtero

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I think the touch of the Casio gp series is of the same level as the ca78 or ca98.

Kawai has a mushy bottom when you press all the way while the Casio has a harder bottom. It's all based on preference.

The sound itself. I think the older Casio gp series doesn't suit modern contemporary slow piano songs as much due to its shorter sustain. But I think it suits classical music really well.

Ca78 I felt with the speakers had a boxy lower end that muddles the notes of chords. It could be the ones in the store wasn't in a good spot or that I didn't reset the piano or it was my ears. But I did try two separate stores same piano. And same feeling I got.

Each has its pros and cons. It's just what ur happy to live with.

I got the gp400. I am happy with it. For my beginner level. I do still think about the kawai series as I like that sk ex sound but I can't complain, it's a good piano.

Last edited by Pianowill; 11/07/19 11:14 PM.
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Since I have to wait a while b4 I'm able to try out the pianos again, that gives me more time to theorize. And though I still really DO want to try the Casio again and like it, I realize that part of the nagging doubt about it has to do with the following: At an earlier stage in thinking about this, I was considering (and posted a question about) whether the CA78 is really worth the difference in cost relative to the CA58. My impression was that yes, it is worthwhile, because it exceeds the CA58 in terms of (1) speakers (onkyo vs plain) (2) keys (a BIT better than the 58, a bit longer) (3) sound engine / pianist mode. The weighting of the keys is also apparently better, but this is debatable as to how much better it is or isn't. In any case, the thing I was wondering about is that perhaps the Casio is actually best compared to the Kawai CA58 instead of the CA78. Are its speakers ina different class than the CA58? (I donl't know). It doesn't have a super high-processed mode, for example. Or are its sounds closer to the CA 78 than the CA58 in terms of complexity.
Will try to get to those stores again next week.....

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Just updating. I tried the casio again, and, using some of the tips learned on these forums (like playing around with resonance settings, scenes, found that I really do like it. I purchased a Gp400, although I have to pick it up (the store is ordering it first). I do think that the speaker system is not quite as good as the kawai 78 (perhaps between the 58 and 78), but the feel and piano tones won me over. Thanks to everyone who helped me in the decision-making process.

Last edited by Eli26; 11/17/19 05:49 PM.
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