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Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905896 10/29/19 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I suggested a rest. Instead he goes for a sprint. frown


Some people can't be told Mac. Ando tried his best, as have you.


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Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905914 10/29/19 07:18 AM
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When a manufacturer chooses to use duplex scaling, or aliquot strings, they do so because they expect to make more money that way. It is a design choice. Both duplex scaling, and the presence of aliquot strings change the frequency spectrum of the sound, thereby affecting tone. Whether this change is pleasing or displeasing is a personal matter.


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Re: What is a hybrid?
Burkey #2905939 10/29/19 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by ando

I would dispute that it was a volume seeking exercise, it is primarily tonal.

Incorrect, the frequencies already exist - so tone is indeed simply increasing the volume of those existing frequencies.


I would agree with ando.

I purchased the VSL 1895 Bluthner that has aliquot stringing and the volume is not increased at all. However, there is a considerable difference in the tone. The extra string does not produce higher decibels, but a more complex tone for each respective key that is pressed.

Also Burkie, I feel like your tone (no pun intended) in this thread is bit condescending and disrespectful. That's just my opinion as someone who likes to observe conversations and not post much.

God Bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 10/29/19 08:38 AM.

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Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905996 10/29/19 11:12 AM
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Yup. It's a design choice based on desired tone color. In the "Steinwayification" or homogenization of the acoustic piano tone of the modern era, it's a decision toward which many (but not all) makers have gravitated. Bechstein built grand pianos with agraffes all the way up and no capo bar as recently as 20 years ago, and we see Bosendorfer not using tuned duplexes on some of their current models based on older designs. There are a couple of others, mostly from the European tonal worldview that perhaps places greater emphasis on clarity over complexity or fatness of tone.

If you've been around enough acoustic pianos, it is readily apparent that the treble of pianos (in good condition), shorter than 7 feet have no problem keeping up with the bass register in terms of volume or power. So, why do these pianos have duplexes or aliquots? If you've played with the duplexes on many grand pianos, particularly the front ones, they're rarely tuned accurately to the fundamental frequency or overtones of a given note. This lends credence to the explanation that it's not actually increasing the volume. Techs who do concert and recording studio work are well aware of all the noises they can contribute, and that's why you often find them muted in certain situations where the player finds them objectionable, the technician finds it difficult to tune cleanly, and close-miking finds revealing in a bad way. At least that's been my observation as a pianist and technician in these situations, as well as what I've observed around other professional pianists and technicians.

In my conversations with piano designers (yes, I've got a couple of them on speed dial, and have had some long discussions on various subjects of piano design, in person because of my association with the Piano Buyer and getting to attend trade shows and occasional dealer meetings), as well as more prominent rebuilders who experiment with aspects of design, and reading a couple books on piano design in the 20th century, there is some disagreement whether the duplexes actually increase sustain or not. There are also examples where the marketing departments or corporate "bean counters" win out over the engineering/design departments in the piano industry, and decisions that are implemented are not always the best possible choices...but that's headed off-topic.

Sweeping generalizations like Burkie's remind me of that scene from Annie Hall with Marshall McLuhan... or reading a hastily-written undergraduate research paper.


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Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2906010 10/29/19 11:39 AM
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Blüthners with aliquots have a magical tone. In the glory days, their most popular aliquot piano was probably the old Model 6, which mostly came with the Blüthner Patent action. This was a very gentle sounding combination.

The fourth string isn't struck. It just resonates.

Some makers experimented with using a fourth struck string, but it didn't catch on. This could make the treble louder and would allow heavier hammers to be used. There was no need.

Duplex scaling became popular because of Steinway. It is an inherent part of the Steinway tone, with scale designs that haven't changed much in a century. It was designed to add brilliance, sustain, and colour. Adding something to change the tone doesn't mean the tone was deficient without it. Some people like duplex scaling and others don't. Some people take sugar, but not me.

Bösendorfer use duplex scaling in several pianos. Some of their most popular pianos don't.

Bechstein swtiched back and forth between using a capo and agraffes in the treble a few times over the last century.

Edit: I didn't realise Terminal Degree had posted, so this post is redundant.



Last edited by johnstaf; 10/29/19 11:41 AM.
Re: What is a hybrid?
terminaldegree #2906012 10/29/19 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
If you've played with the duplexes on many grand pianos, particularly the front ones, they're rarely tuned accurately to the fundamental frequency or overtones of a given note. This lends credence to the explanation that it's not actually increasing the volume. Techs who do concert and recording studio work are well aware of all the noises they can contribute, and that's why you often find them muted in certain situations where the player finds them objectionable, the technician finds it difficult to tune cleanly, and close-miking finds revealing in a bad way.


I used to practise on one particular Model D, and the duplex on some notes used to shriek like a banshee. I bought some hearing protectors, and that sorted it for me. grin

Last edited by johnstaf; 10/29/19 11:48 AM.
Re: What is a hybrid?
terminaldegree #2906166 10/29/19 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Yup. It's a design choice based on desired tone color. In the "Steinwayification" or homogenization of the acoustic piano tone of the modern era, it's a decision toward which many (but not all) makers have gravitated. Bechstein built grand pianos with agraffes all the way up and no capo bar as recently as 20 years ago, and we see Bosendorfer not using tuned duplexes on some of their current models based on older designs. There are a couple of others, mostly from the European tonal worldview that perhaps places greater emphasis on clarity over complexity or fatness of tone.

If you've been around enough acoustic pianos, it is readily apparent that the treble of pianos (in good condition), shorter than 7 feet have no problem keeping up with the bass register in terms of volume or power. So, why do these pianos have duplexes or aliquots? If you've played with the duplexes on many grand pianos, particularly the front ones, they're rarely tuned accurately to the fundamental frequency or overtones of a given note. This lends credence to the explanation that it's not actually increasing the volume. Techs who do concert and recording studio work are well aware of all the noises they can contribute, and that's why you often find them muted in certain situations where the player finds them objectionable, the technician finds it difficult to tune cleanly, and close-miking finds revealing in a bad way. At least that's been my observation as a pianist and technician in these situations, as well as what I've observed around other professional pianists and technicians.

In my conversations with piano designers (yes, I've got a couple of them on speed dial, and have had some long discussions on various subjects of piano design, in person because of my association with the Piano Buyer and getting to attend trade shows and occasional dealer meetings), as well as more prominent rebuilders who experiment with aspects of design, and reading a couple books on piano design in the 20th century, there is some disagreement whether the duplexes actually increase sustain or not. There are also examples where the marketing departments or corporate "bean counters" win out over the engineering/design departments in the piano industry, and decisions that are implemented are not always the best possible choices...but that's headed off-topic.

Sweeping generalizations like Burkie's remind me of that scene from Annie Hall with Marshall McLuhan... or reading a hastily-written undergraduate research paper.

Thankyou, terminaldegree - I didn't think it was wise for me to continue discussing this with Burkie. I think your post comprehensively puts this issue to rest.

Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2906188 10/29/19 06:48 PM
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Thank you for sharing your insights, chaps.

James
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Re: What is a hybrid?
David B #2906212 10/29/19 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by ando

I would dispute that it was a volume seeking exercise, it is primarily tonal.

Incorrect, the frequencies already exist - so tone is indeed simply increasing the volume of those existing frequencies.


I would agree with ando.

I purchased the VSL 1895 Bluthner that has aliquot stringing and the volume is not increased at all. However, there is a considerable difference in the tone. The extra string does not produce higher decibels, but a more complex tone for each respective key that is pressed.

I was talking about duplex scaling, not aliquot strings.


Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: What is a hybrid?
David B #2906213 10/29/19 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by David B

Also Burkie, I feel like your tone (no pun intended) in this thread is bit condescending and disrespectful. That's just my opinion as someone who likes to observe conversations and not post much.

God Bless,
David

So ando putting words into my keyboard is not disrespectful??


Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: What is a hybrid?
terminaldegree #2906217 10/29/19 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Yup. It's a design choice based on desired tone color.

That's what I was saying: the frequencies already exist (overtones) - duplex scaling merely increases the volume of these existing frequencies thereby widening the combined tone.
My main point was that digital pianos can do this better than duplex scaling or aliquot stringing.

Originally Posted by terminaldegree

Sweeping generalizations like Burkie's remind me of that scene from Annie Hall with Marshall McLuhan... or reading a hastily-written undergraduate research paper.

Which generalizations are you referring to? Please be specific.

Last edited by Burkie; 10/29/19 08:14 PM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2907181 11/01/19 02:13 PM
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For the naysayers who put their heads in the sand and claim loudly but falsely that the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) are not hybrid digital grand pianos, I already said in length all I had to say about why the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) are indeed fully hybrid digital grand pianos like the Yamaha AvantGrand and the Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand pianos are. Moreover, this position is supported not only by Casio, but also by myself for the detailed reasons that I gave, and by many people who are rational, unbiased, and without any agenda of any kind.

Let us hear the feedback from a person who bought the Casio hybrid digital grand piano GP-510 and who has had before the Casio GP-500. Here is a very good pianist who even preferred buying a Casio hybrid digital grand piano GP-510 than using an acoustic Yamaha C1X grand fitted with a silent system!! This story puts into perspective all the various very condescending and dubious claims made by a few "experts" concerning the quality of the piano sounds and the quality of the hybrid grand piano keyboard action and touch that are used on the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310)!!
From "L. v. Beethoven - Sonata No. 14, Op. 27 no. 2, movement 3 - Kateryna Titova on GP-510 - YouTube" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMt...wyuzpjmgkjuav51w03c010c.1572564644063059
Simon Johnson
3 weeks ago [from 2019/11/01]
I've had my new Casio GP510 for a few days now and I really love it. I had the GP500 before but swapped it for an expensive, brand new, Yamaha C1X grand fitted with a silent system because I wanted a 'real' piano. I actually preferred the Casio so after much anguish I sold the Yamaha and I've gone back to another Casio. In my opinion the GP510 has a better base than a small acoustic grand piano (even an expensive one) it's also easier to play at a sensible volume level without disturbing people several rooms away.

Michael
2 weeks ago [from 2019/11/01]
In your opinion, what are the differences between the GP-500 and the GP-510 on various aspects: piano sound, touch, etc.?

Simon Johnson
3 hours ago [from 2019/11/01]
@Michael Not much difference really. Perhaps a slightly improved bass sound and slightly easier to play very quietly but as I no longer have the 500 to compare it to it's hard to be sure. For both versions the sound on the headphones is excellent and the sound on the piano's speakers is less good but not bad.

Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2907200 11/01/19 02:52 PM
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Time to close this thread?



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Re: What is a hybrid?
ˆTomLCˆ #2907204 11/01/19 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Time to close this thread?

It's certainly got the blues now. wink


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Re: What is a hybrid?
MikePianoLover #2907223 11/01/19 03:38 PM
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Mike,

"Lighten up, Francis"

Whatever a hybrid is or is not, your insistence does not change any definition. The blue writing might be a nice effect, but it's not like it is some sort of official seal of truth or anything. I do not understand why you carry this torch of forcing your opinions on everyone else. So I say, STOP. NOW.


Ken

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Piano Torturer
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