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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
Snail #2906558 10/30/19 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Snail
It's just music, not some sort of sacred divinity thing.

The way some people worships the written notes is to me so much anti artistic as those who find acceptable and natural that some painted works are valued millions of $


It's not about the notes themselves being sacred, it's the artistic integrity that is sacred.

Change the original composer's intent all you want if you have something meaningful to say. Freshness and inventiveness should be welcomed as much (if not more) than accuracy to the score.

But to change notes because of convenience? That's just being lazy.

And why shouldn't paintings be worth millions? You do realize that the only reason that they are worth that much is because people are willing to pay that much? Same reason why a concert pianist charges thousands to perform, or why a Rolls-Royce can cost half a million dollars. Art is subjective.

Basic economics, I don't see your logic here.

Last edited by achoo42; 10/30/19 07:31 PM.

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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
achoo42 #2906592 10/30/19 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42
Originally Posted by Snail
It's just music, not some sort of sacred divinity thing.

The way some people worships the written notes is to me so much anti artistic as those who find acceptable and natural that some painted works are valued millions of $


It's not about the notes themselves being sacred, it's the artistic integrity that is sacred.

Change the original composer's intent all you want if you have something meaningful to say. Freshness and inventiveness should be welcomed as much (if not more) than accuracy to the score.

But to change notes because of convenience? That's just being lazy.

And why shouldn't paintings be worth millions? You do realize that the only reason that they are worth that much is because people are willing to pay that much? Same reason why a concert pianist charges thousands to perform, or why a Rolls-Royce can cost half a million dollars. Art is subjective.

Basic economics, I don't see your logic here.


I don't see yours...if the price of the painting should rely on how much people are willing to pay, should not the value of the performance also be judged by what the audience feels about it? And they certainly don't care about a few notes here and there. Except that one, who goes to a concert with the score, expecting to hear a recording wink

We would have few great pianists, if they were not lazy as you put it...

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
outo #2906655 10/31/19 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by outo
Except that one, who goes to a concert with the score, expecting to hear a recording wink


I often wonder if these people can actually read the music. Maybe it's my bad mind.

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
johnstaf #2906657 10/31/19 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by outo
Except that one, who goes to a concert with the score, expecting to hear a recording wink


I often wonder if these people can actually read the music. Maybe it's my bad mind.


Years ago, I was at an open rehearsal of the Guarneri String Quartet where there was a guy sitting in the front row who had the music for what they were rehearsing. At one point, the members of the quartet got into an argument over what was supposed to happen at some measure number but they couldn’t agree on the measure. One of them looked at the guy in the front row, and he quietly told them the measure number. David Soyer, the cellist, said, darned music mavens!

Recently, I brought music for a classical guitar piece that I was working on to a masterclass where someone else was playing the piece, a rarity for me. That’s always fun. I discovered that my teacher taught the piece better than the master, and that the master was missing some obvious solutions to problems but I kept my mouth shut, although I wanted to yell out.

Last edited by LarryK; 10/31/19 06:17 AM.

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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906658 10/31/19 06:17 AM
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Watching a rehearsal I'd definitely bring the score.

When I was in college, some of us tried to arrange open rehearsals with the biggest local orchestra, but they weren't interested.

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
outo #2906860 10/31/19 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by outo

I don't see yours...if the price of the painting should rely on how much people are willing to pay, should not the value of the performance also be judged by what the audience feels about it? And they certainly don't care about a few notes here and there. Except that one, who goes to a concert with the score, expecting to hear a recording wink


I repeat, it's not about the notes but the artistic integrity.

If you enjoy pianists like Lang Lang who appeal to the audience while throwing composer's intent out of the window, more power to you. He is the indeed the highest valued pianist in the world.

How does one determine who is a greater pianist? If we go by your logic where the audience enjoyment is crucial to how great a pianist is then Lang Lang is also the greatest pianist in the world, if not of all time. If we don't hold composer's intent into consideration then there is no reason to say otherwise.

Originally Posted by outo

We would have few great pianists, if they were not lazy as you put it...


This makes no sense. All great pianists have the ability to play the standard repertoire as it is written. When they encounter difficulties with the notes, they simply don't perform the piece in question. Horowitz and Rubinstein never performed Chopin Op.10 No.1. Today, we have such an abundance of prodigies that can play all the notes perfectly that "laziness" with the score isn't even a factor.

Last edited by achoo42; 10/31/19 04:47 PM.

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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906910 10/31/19 06:19 PM
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But also an obsession about the notes been played absolutely as they are written may become something that kills the art. I remember now a recording of some Bach work played by Gould and people getting mad because in one bar he deliberately changed a few notes. Not even to make it easier, just because he wanted to, i guess. So what? The playing is great nontheles and enjoyable. But they get angry over that little change, wich anyway was common practice in the baroque era.

Regarding people paying millions for a painting i bet no one of them pay so much because the beauty on it, but because the signature on it, i mean they simply invest their money in art. Art becomes another chapter in their portfolio of financial investment along with shareholding, real estate and the like. If don't think that kills art, good for you. To me is heck.

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
achoo42 #2906961 10/31/19 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42
Change the original composer's intent all you want if you have something meaningful to say. Freshness and inventiveness should be welcomed as much (if not more) than accuracy to the score.
Most of the great pianists for the last 70+ years play mostly what the composer wrote. If one listens to performances of some work by 10 great pianists they all sound different although they respect the composer's score.

I don't understand why almost no one changes the notes( except if a passage is too difficult which is not what my post is about) except occasionally in a few composers like Liszt, but some feel it's OK to ignore all the other markings about tempo, articulation, dynamics, etc. in the score.

What you call freshness and inventiveness others would call putting one's ideas above those of the composer or arrogance.

A teacher I know asks students who don't follow the score something like this:"If you imagine you could take a lesson from Chopin, and he marked something in your score or pointed out where you didn't follow the score what would you do?"

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906966 10/31/19 09:56 PM
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The funny one to me is when the repercussions of a trill ought to sound like an old-fashioned doorbell, very rapid, and someone plays da da da da da da almost like the opening of "Fur Elise." I've heard both Gould and Zimerman do that in the most surprising places (where one would think that they could have handled playing the faster repercussions).

There is a big, unreachable (for me) chord in Liszt's "Hamornies du soir" at a very important place in a climax, and my teacher told me to leave a note out of it that he "guaranteed nobody but a judge would notice" in order to make it feasible. I wasn't playing it for a competition. laugh

I had a non-pianist theory teacher who hated when pianists roll a chord that they cannot otherwise reach. He felt, by all means, reharmonize the thing so that it can be reached: that's what theory knowledge is for. I'm not sure that I entirely agree with that one.

A technical problem spot or two is one thing, a whole piece of those spots is best avoided.


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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
pianoloverus #2906968 10/31/19 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus


I don't understand why almost no one changes the notes( except if a passage is too difficult which is not what my post is about) except occasionally in a few composers like Liszt, but some feel it's OK to ignore all the other markings about tempo, articulation, dynamics, etc. in the score.

What you call freshness and inventiveness others would call putting one's ideas above those of the composer or arrogance.



There is a very famous past Cliburn winner who plays superficially perfect and compelling interpretations that critics have pointed out almost entirely have nothing to do with the composer's markings. It happens.


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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
WhoDwaldi #2906980 10/31/19 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
Originally Posted by pianoloverus


I don't understand why almost no one changes the notes( except if a passage is too difficult which is not what my post is about) except occasionally in a few composers like Liszt, but some feel it's OK to ignore all the other markings about tempo, articulation, dynamics, etc. in the score.

What you call freshness and inventiveness others would call putting one's ideas above those of the composer or arrogance.



There is a very famous past Cliburn winner who plays superficially perfect and compelling interpretations that critics have pointed out almost entirely have nothing to do with the composer's markings. It happens.
Who are you referring to and which performances? That doesn't change the fact that he would be an outlier among great pianists.

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
WhoDwaldi #2906981 10/31/19 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
The funny one to me is when the repercussions of a trill ought to sound like an old-fashioned doorbell, very rapid, and someone plays da da da da da da almost like the opening of "Fur Elise." I've heard both Gould and Zimerman do that in the most surprising places (where one would think that they could have handled playing the faster repercussions)..

Unless there was something very unusual about the trills, I would assume it was their choice to play it that way. They both have phenomenal technique.

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
Snail #2906995 11/01/19 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Snail
But also an obsession about the notes been played absolutely as they are written may become something that kills the art. I remember now a recording of some Bach work played by Gould and people getting mad because in one bar he deliberately changed a few notes. Not even to make it easier, just because he wanted to, i guess. So what? The playing is great nontheles and enjoyable. But they get angry over that little change, wich anyway was common practice in the baroque era.

Regarding people paying millions for a painting i bet no one of them pay so much because the beauty on it, but because the signature on it, i mean they simply invest their money in art. Art becomes another chapter in their portfolio of financial investment along with shareholding, real estate and the like. If don't think that kills art, good for you. To me is heck.


Well, I don't judge how great a painting is by how expensive it is. A cave painting from 50,000 BC may be artistically crap but of course it is priceless. Aesthetic beauty has nothing to do with an artwork's price, if you want a beautiful artpiece then simply buy the reproduction for a couple of hundred dollars.

Also, I don't think Bach should be touched. It's about how great he was and how he wrote the music—every harmonic change and little detail is pure and beautiful. If you know the Well-Tempered Clavier very well, you know what I'm talking about. Change it, sure—but I doubt that it'll be superior to the original.

Now about Chopin and Liszt—obviously they were geniuses but they wrote their music in a way that if you were to change some of the harmonies or the left hand chords, artistic integrity could still be intact.


Last edited by achoo42; 11/01/19 12:10 AM.

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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
achoo42 #2906996 11/01/19 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by achoo42
Originally Posted by outo

I don't see yours...if the price of the painting should rely on how much people are willing to pay, should not the value of the performance also be judged by what the audience feels about it? And they certainly don't care about a few notes here and there. Except that one, who goes to a concert with the score, expecting to hear a recording wink


I repeat, it's not about the notes but the artistic integrity.

If you enjoy pianists like Lang Lang who appeal to the audience while throwing composer's intent out of the window, more power to you. He is the indeed the highest valued pianist in the world.

How does one determine who is a greater pianist? If we go by your logic where the audience enjoyment is crucial to how great a pianist is then Lang Lang is also the greatest pianist in the world, if not of all time. If we don't hold composer's intent into consideration then there is no reason to say otherwise.

Originally Posted by outo

We would have few great pianists, if they were not lazy as you put it...


This makes no sense. All great pianists have the ability to play the standard repertoire as it is written. When they encounter difficulties with the notes, they simply don't perform the piece in question. Horowitz and Rubinstein never performed Chopin Op.10 No.1. Today, we have such an abundance of prodigies that can play all the notes perfectly that "laziness" with the score isn't even a factor.


I assume you never heard either of those pianists live? Do you listen to historical recordings? It it quite eye opening, when they are not edited studio recordings. What you call lazyness is what surely every pro pianist building their career had to do sometimes to get things done when needed. When you get a chance to play a concerto with a famous conductor, you don't say: Sorry, I don't have time to perfect it to 110%. Call me again some other time. Competitions are a different matter.

This type of obsessive perfectionism is a very recent thing anyway, I would think most of the composers would be in awe...

I don't listen to LangLang, sorry. I don't think we are even talking about the same thing here.

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
WhoDwaldi #2907161 11/01/19 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
....There is a big, unreachable (for me) chord in Liszt's "Hamornies du soir" at a very important place in a climax, and my teacher told me to leave a note out of it that he "guaranteed nobody but a judge would notice" in order to make it feasible...

I had a non-pianist theory teacher who hated when pianists roll a chord that they cannot otherwise reach. He felt, by all means, reharmonize the thing so that it can be reached: that's what theory knowledge is for. I'm not sure that I entirely agree with that one....
That's interesting. In both instances the pianist is not being true to the score; deviations of the first sort are common and accepted, but the second is not. I wonder why that is. A rolled chord where none is indicated could seem more jarring than a rearrangement of the chord to make it playable.


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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
outo #2907584 11/01/19 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by achoo42
Originally Posted by outo

I don't see yours...if the price of the painting should rely on how much people are willing to pay, should not the value of the performance also be judged by what the audience feels about it? And they certainly don't care about a few notes here and there. Except that one, who goes to a concert with the score, expecting to hear a recording wink


I repeat, it's not about the notes but the artistic integrity.

If you enjoy pianists like Lang Lang who appeal to the audience while throwing composer's intent out of the window, more power to you. He is the indeed the highest valued pianist in the world.

How does one determine who is a greater pianist? If we go by your logic where the audience enjoyment is crucial to how great a pianist is then Lang Lang is also the greatest pianist in the world, if not of all time. If we don't hold composer's intent into consideration then there is no reason to say otherwise.

Originally Posted by outo

We would have few great pianists, if they were not lazy as you put it...


This makes no sense. All great pianists have the ability to play the standard repertoire as it is written. When they encounter difficulties with the notes, they simply don't perform the piece in question. Horowitz and Rubinstein never performed Chopin Op.10 No.1. Today, we have such an abundance of prodigies that can play all the notes perfectly that "laziness" with the score isn't even a factor.


I assume you never heard either of those pianists live? Do you listen to historical recordings? It it quite eye opening, when they are not edited studio recordings. What you call lazyness is what surely every pro pianist building their career had to do sometimes to get things done when needed. When you get a chance to play a concerto with a famous conductor, you don't say: Sorry, I don't have time to perfect it to 110%. Call me again some other time. Competitions are a different matter.

This type of obsessive perfectionism is a very recent thing anyway, I would think most of the composers would be in awe...

I don't listen to LangLang, sorry. I don't think we are even talking about the same thing here.


You are still obsessed about the notes. Did you notice that I didn't say anything about perfection with notes? Did you know that you can convey composer's intent without being 100% accurate to the notes?

I've played dozens of concertos with many conductors (probably only locally famous). I have never played a piece with 100% of the correct notes, and I'm not a fan of fine tuning pieces. Here's the thing—I never missed notes on purpose or because I was "lazy", and neither did Horowitz or Rubinstein (well, not too sure about Rubinstein because he wasn't a technician).

You seem to have missed the point of literally everything I said.

Last edited by achoo42; 11/01/19 11:32 PM.

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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
achoo42 #2907587 11/01/19 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42
Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by achoo42
Originally Posted by outo

I don't see yours...if the price of the painting should rely on how much people are willing to pay, should not the value of the performance also be judged by what the audience feels about it? And they certainly don't care about a few notes here and there. Except that one, who goes to a concert with the score, expecting to hear a recording wink


I repeat, it's not about the notes but the artistic integrity.

If you enjoy pianists like Lang Lang who appeal to the audience while throwing composer's intent out of the window, more power to you. He is the indeed the highest valued pianist in the world.

How does one determine who is a greater pianist? If we go by your logic where the audience enjoyment is crucial to how great a pianist is then Lang Lang is also the greatest pianist in the world, if not of all time. If we don't hold composer's intent into consideration then there is no reason to say otherwise.

Originally Posted by outo

We would have few great pianists, if they were not lazy as you put it...


This makes no sense. All great pianists have the ability to play the standard repertoire as it is written. When they encounter difficulties with the notes, they simply don't perform the piece in question. Horowitz and Rubinstein never performed Chopin Op.10 No.1. Today, we have such an abundance of prodigies that can play all the notes perfectly that "laziness" with the score isn't even a factor.


I assume you never heard either of those pianists live? Do you listen to historical recordings? It it quite eye opening, when they are not edited studio recordings. What you call lazyness is what surely every pro pianist building their career had to do sometimes to get things done when needed. When you get a chance to play a concerto with a famous conductor, you don't say: Sorry, I don't have time to perfect it to 110%. Call me again some other time. Competitions are a different matter.

This type of obsessive perfectionism is a very recent thing anyway, I would think most of the composers would be in awe...

I don't listen to LangLang, sorry. I don't think we are even talking about the same thing here.


You are still obsessed about the notes. Did you notice that I didn't say anything about perfection with notes? Did you know that you can convey composer's intent without being 100% accurate to the notes?

I've played dozens of concertos with many conductors (probably only locally famous). I have never played a piece with 100% of the correct notes, and I'm not a fan of fine tuning pieces. Here's the thing—I never missed notes on purpose or because I was "lazy", and neither did Horowitz or Rubinstein (well, not too sure about Rubinstein because he wasn't a technician).

You seem to have missed the point of literally everything I said.


So have you obviously. I was never obsessed about notes, quite the opposite.

YOU said above that missing notes because of convenience is being lazy. Maybe your definition of convenience is a lot more narrow than mine because I am sure practically everyone does at some point rather than not perform at all when they are playing for bread and it does not ruin the performance in any way. The composers intent is another matter and the further back in history we go the more naive it would be to think one can know exactly what it was.

So do you think Rubinstein or Horowitch (or many others) would have become world famous if they were picky about what they play in their early careers in Russia? You are talking about them when they were international stars, but a lot happened before that.


Last edited by outo; 11/02/19 12:28 AM.
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
outo #2907602 11/02/19 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by outo


So have you obviously. I was never obsessed about notes, quite the opposite.



I said you are obssessed with the notes because you keep on referring to them when I'm not referring to them at all.

I repeat: the composer's intent is indicated by the markings and the notes written, and if you actively choose to change the intent, it must be done with artistic integrity. Horowitz did not actively change the music to make it easier, at least not out of convenience.


Originally Posted by outo
So do you think Rubinstein or Horowitch (or many others) would have become world famous if they were picky about what they play in their early careers in Russia? You are talking about them when they were international stars, but a lot happened before that.


So what if they became superstars or not based on pickiness? Why do you care about that and not artistic integrity?

Rubinstein himself had something say about this:



Well, the audience in Paris loved his performance, so why should he bother to improve?


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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
....There is a big, unreachable (for me) chord in Liszt's "Hamornies du soir" at a very important place in a climax, and my teacher told me to leave a note out of it that he "guaranteed nobody but a judge would notice" in order to make it feasible...

I had a non-pianist theory teacher who hated when pianists roll a chord that they cannot otherwise reach. He felt, by all means, reharmonize the thing so that it can be reached: that's what theory knowledge is for. I'm not sure that I entirely agree with that one....
That's interesting. In both instances the pianist is not being true to the score; deviations of the first sort are common and accepted, but the second is not. I wonder why that is. A rolled chord where none is indicated could seem more jarring than a rearrangement of the chord to make it playable.


Depends on the piece. Many composer's music (Schumann, Ives, et al) have large chords that do not indicate rolling but are rolled by many pianists anyways—if everybody rolls something it is no longer jarring.


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Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
achoo42 #2907628 11/02/19 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by achoo42
[Horowitz did not actively change the music to make it easier, at least not out of convenience.



Are you sure?


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